#271439 - Tue Jul 26 2005 05:11 PM
Re: Explosions in London
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Administrator
Registered: Sat Mar 29 2003
Posts: 16595
Loc: Western Canada
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If the police had shot to wound, or just tried in some less violent way to question him, and he WAS a suicide bomber, what then? He would have set off his bomb, more people would have been killed, and we would all be saying "What's the matter with those police? Why didn't they shoot to kill?"
The editorial in my local paper put it well, this morning - the Brazilian was a victim of the terrorist attacks, no less than those who died in the underground; and the police who shot him are scarred and wounded survivors. I can't believe that members of a force which has a long and proud tradition of going unarmed are taking this lightly.
To me, the actions of the police seem reasonable. Unfortuately, sometimes mistakes are made. It doesn't seem that they were dashing around like cowboys, itching to shoot. And, if they were, this mistake will have put a damper on such behaviour in future.
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#271440 - Tue Jul 26 2005 05:26 PM
Re: Explosions in London
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Moderator
Registered: Wed Mar 15 2000
Posts: 16214
Loc: The Delta Quadrant
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Agony - I couldn't agree more with your post.
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#271441 - Tue Jul 26 2005 05:56 PM
Re: Explosions in London
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Prolific
Registered: Mon Jun 03 2002
Posts: 1037
Loc: Hobart Tasmania Australia
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Quote:
If the police had shot to wound, or just tried in some less violent way to question him, and he WAS a suicide bomber, what then? He would have set off his bomb, more people would have been killed, and we would all be saying "What's the matter with those police? Why didn't they shoot to kill?"
The editorial in my local paper put it well, this morning - the Brazilian was a victim of the terrorist attacks, no less than those who died in the underground; and the police who shot him are scarred and wounded survivors. I can't believe that members of a force which has a long and proud tradition of going unarmed are taking this lightly.
To me, the actions of the police seem reasonable. Unfortuately, sometimes mistakes are made. It doesn't seem that they were dashing around like cowboys, itching to shoot. And, if they were, this mistake will have put a damper on such behaviour in future.
My points do not concern whether the police have a right to shoot to kill - my points are concerned with what happened before they reached that point and are
1) Should not the police's intelligence gathering have been better than it seems to have been. Did the fact that the police were unaware that there were 8 flats in the building lead to them identifying an innocent man as a suspect?
2) Why did the police not take action earlier than the station? Why was he allowed to get onto a bus? I assume that bus passenger lives are not less important that train passenger lives.
3) Should plainsclothes police always identify themselves before firing at a subject?
If there are reasonable answers to these questions I have no trouble with police 'shooting to kill' at the train station.
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#271443 - Wed Jul 27 2005 01:03 AM
Re: Explosions in London
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Multiloquent
Registered: Mon Feb 10 2003
Posts: 2167
Loc: Sydney
NSW Australia
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One item of interest is the fact that the unfortunate Brazilian was working illegally in London. It`s not beyond belief that he did in fact hear the command to stop and did hear the word "police" but chose to run anyway to avoid any immigration difficulties.
I of course don`t think for an instant that he deserved to be shot for working without a permit but it does put a new slant on his fate. If he wasn`t breaking any laws he would perhaps have not run. Something to ponder about I guess.
I just viewed a photo of the gentleman and would have trouble identifying his nationality, he looks like he might come from the middle east and if I saw him walking down the street with electrical wires poking out of his pockets I would certainly walk the other way and alert the police. If I saw him boarding a plane ahead of me I would be less than pleased.
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#271444 - Wed Jul 27 2005 01:24 AM
Re: Explosions in London
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Prolific
Registered: Mon Jun 03 2002
Posts: 1037
Loc: Hobart Tasmania Australia
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They seems to be some doubt as to whether he was illegal or not Quote:
While Menezes' relatives said he was working legally in Britain and had no reason to fear police, the BBC said Menezes' visa had expired, suggesting a reason why he might have run.
At a joint news conference in London with British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw, Amorim said the Brazilian Embassy had told him Menezes was living legally in England. Brazilian correspondents also quoted Straw as saying that he understood that Menezes' situation was legal.
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2005/07/27/2003265261
If he was legal than the only reason he would have for running is that he didn't realise they were police.
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#271446 - Wed Jul 27 2005 05:56 AM
Re: Explosions in London
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Moderator
Registered: Wed Mar 15 2000
Posts: 16214
Loc: The Delta Quadrant
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Some say he his visa had expired, relatives say it hadn't.
In related news, there are news reports that Yasin hassan Omar, the man in the photo from the bus, may have been arrested in Birmingham.
One news story: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8687124/
Edited by ladymacb29 (Wed Jul 27 2005 09:54 AM)
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#271447 - Wed Jul 27 2005 12:11 PM
Re: Explosions in London
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Moderator
Registered: Wed Mar 15 2000
Posts: 16214
Loc: The Delta Quadrant
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London police are now confirming that they have Omar in custody, as per banner headline at msnbc.com According to the news article I looked at arlier, arrested with him were some Somalis.
Maybe now we'll get some good intel and answers.
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#271449 - Wed Jul 27 2005 03:59 PM
Re: Explosions in London
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Moderator
Registered: Tue May 15 2001
Posts: 14384
Loc: Australia
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I keep having to think about what people mean by Asian - I know the Brits call Indians and Pakis, for example, Asian -where I'd say they were from the sub-continent. Asians to me would be from Japan, China and so on. The comment "Brazilian. They don't even LOOK asian." had me thinking ... "well no one else involved looks Asian either  " I saw on the news that they are thinking about bringing in a National Identity card in the UK (and it's being looked at here too). How would this stop terrorism? I can't see the link.
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#271451 - Wed Aug 10 2005 04:46 PM
Re: Explosions in London
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Prolific
Registered: Mon Jun 03 2002
Posts: 1037
Loc: Hobart Tasmania Australia
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I would like to know what they are saying about the Jean Charles de Menezes killing now that a couple of weeks have passed. I have read on a couple of websites that he wasn't wearing a bulky jacket but instead was wearing a denem jacket that isn't an unusual thing for someone to wear in London at this time of year. I have also seem reports that say that he didn't jumo the ticket barrier but used his pass to get through. How accurate are these reports. Are these points being raised in the British press?
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#271454 - Wed Aug 17 2005 01:50 PM
Re: Explosions in London
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Administrator
Registered: Sun Dec 19 1999
Posts: 38004
Loc: Jersey
Channel Islands
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It certainly puts a different slant on things.
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#271455 - Sat Aug 20 2005 03:18 PM
Re: Explosions in London
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Prolific
Registered: Mon Jun 03 2002
Posts: 1037
Loc: Hobart Tasmania Australia
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It certainly does put a different slant on things as it seems that Jean Charles de Menezes was not acting suspiciously in any way.
The person who was supposed to make a positive identification when Jean left the block of flats was unable to because he was relieving himself at the time. Wasn't it vital to identify him correctly especially as there were so many plats in the apartment and therefore many people who lived in the building had nothing to do with the apartment under surveillance.
Despite police suspicions Jean was allowed to board a bus and take a ride. If he was a bomber couldn't he have just blown up the bus?
The police who got on the bus said Jean had 'Mongolian eyes' which he did not have.
The police had an opportunity to arrest Jean betwwen the time he left the flat and arrived at the bus-stop and between the bus-stop and the station but failed to do so. If Jean had been arrested at these points in time there would have been much less danger to civilians even if he had been a bomber.
I read one report that states that the commander in charge of the operation, Cressida Dick, never gave the order to kill. She only ordered that the man ne arrested.
Jean was wearing a denim jacket not a bulky jacket. Though the police never claimed he was wearing a bulky jacket they did nothing to deny these facts after they were repeatedly stated in newspaper though the police certainly knew it wasn't true.
Jean never jumped the barrier. Once again the police must have known that he just walked through the barriers normally but the police didn't admit this.
It seems to me that this has gone from being a justified homicide (questionable in the first place) to being manslaughter at the least, and, if the commander only gave the order to arrest and the shooter disobeyed her, it could be murder.
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#271456 - Sun Aug 21 2005 04:32 AM
Re: Explosions in London
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Forum Champion
Registered: Sat Apr 13 2002
Posts: 5473
Loc: South of England
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Originally posted by Bloomsby: Quote:
At the moment it's far too early to say anything about the accuracy of the various accounts.
Easy to say in hindsight I know but I think this always has been the case.
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#271457 - Sun Aug 21 2005 04:44 AM
Re: Explosions in London
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Administrator
Registered: Sun Dec 19 1999
Posts: 38004
Loc: Jersey
Channel Islands
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I do not dispute the fact that it is terribly sad that an innocent man was killed by mistake. However, what would we all be saying if a man came from a block of flats which were thought to harbour a suspected bomber, who was of an appearance which made him look like one of the suspects, who was then followed to the tube, boarded it then blew it up? We would have been asking why, if he was followed by police who suspected him of being a terrorist, was he not stopped before he could bomb the train.
They cannot win.
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#271458 - Sun Aug 21 2005 09:38 AM
Re: Explosions in London
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Moderator
Registered: Wed Mar 15 2000
Posts: 16214
Loc: The Delta Quadrant
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Quote:
I do not dispute the fact that it is terribly sad that an innocent man was killed by mistake. However, what would we all be saying if a man came from a block of flats which were thought to harbour a suspected bomber, who was of an appearance which made him look like one of the suspects, who was then followed to the tube, boarded it then blew it up? We would have been asking why, if he was followed by police who suspected him of being a terrorist, was he not stopped before he could bomb the train.
They cannot win.
Thank you, sue, for saying this so well.
What is the best way not to have innocent people killed? The only thing I can think of is if everyone walked around naked not carrying any packages. Then there'd be no guessing whether or not someone had something that could harm others. But we all know that's not going to happen, so what's the next best choice? Strip searches as you leave your house?
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#271459 - Sun Aug 21 2005 10:41 AM
Re: Explosions in London
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Forum Champion
Registered: Sat Apr 13 2002
Posts: 5473
Loc: South of England
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It will be a sad situation indeed if we have to accept that the Police may sometimes mistakenly shoot an innocent person for the greater good of the general public. I hope very much they'll find a way of avoiding that. Whatever the rights, wrongs or unavoidability of the events, I just can't help thinking about how I'd feel if that had been a member of my family. I don't think I'd be able to express a level-headed opinion aout it.
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#271461 - Sun Aug 21 2005 01:41 PM
Re: Explosions in London
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Prolific
Registered: Mon Jun 03 2002
Posts: 1037
Loc: Hobart Tasmania Australia
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I think that the death of an innocent person might have been more acceptable if the police had not made so many mistakes in this case
Such as having only one policmen who could have identified the suspect watching the flat - if they had had two policemen watching the flat and one wanted to take a leak the other was still be able to make the identification. It is unacceptable for an innocent not to have been identified because the policman (actually it seems he was actually a soldier) who could have discounted him as a suspect was relieving himself when de Menezes left the building.
For police to realise that letting a suspect believed to be carrying a bomb onto a bus is as bad as letting him onto a train unless bus commuters are judge to be more expendable.
To train police to judge how much clothing is needed to conceal a bomb carried on a person. Is a denim jacket enough to conceal a bomb? Weren't the bombs left the day before by people connected to the real suspects carried in rucksacks not on the person?
Give police some training over visual recognition of different ethnic groups i.e not all tanned people are Arabs or Asian. The deceased did not have 'Mongloid eyes' as the police on the bus decided he did.
Teach police to understand commands i.e. if they are given an order to "intercept him" that doesn't mean 'shoot-to-kill'
Make sure that if you have police marksmen working in the underground they have radios that work. It is being reported that the marksmen radios did not work underground.
Teaching police if you have a suspect pinned, unable to move it might be wise to check him for a bomb before shooting him in the head seven times.
For the police to learn that when you shoot an innocent man admit to it as soon as possible instead of letting the blame be shifted to the deceased. If they knew what is being said in the media was totally wrong they should have corrected it out of respect to the deceased.
It is acceptable for the police to shoot a genuine suspect, or even an innocent, but it is not acceptable when that innocent's death is a result of incompetence and basic failures of communication as it seems to be in this case. You cannot blame police imcompetence on the terrorists even though you can blame the need to do investigations of suspects, and the climate of fear, on the terrorists.
Edited by Kuu (Sun Aug 21 2005 02:01 PM)
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