#277152 - Mon Sep 05 2005 07:36 AM
Re: New Orleans
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Star Poster
Registered: Thu Oct 07 1999
Posts: 10282
Loc: New York USA
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I think it is safe to assume that New Orleans, like every other major city, had a chronic criminal element, as well as gangs, drug dealers, addicts, the mentally disturbed and the habitually antisocial types. Once the external constraints of law vanished, some of these people opportunistically seized control with aggressive power displays, and preyed on whoever and whatever was vulnerable and available.
Normal law abiding citizens do not suddenly turn into rapists and muggers, nor do they shoot at rescue helicopters or terrorize hospital workers, or assault police and national guard members who are attempting to deliver aid to them. I suspect that the people who did do those things are the ones who are always "at war" with society, commit crimes routinely, and are periodically incarcerated. The lack of security in this situation just gave these types free reign and higher public visibility.
These types of crimes/criminals are part of the disgusting underbelly of poverty. The devastation revealed the poverty and racial divides in New Orleans, and it also exposed the criminal element and undercurrent of violence that thrives in such depressed urban environments on a daily basis all the time. The current situation didn't create these people, it just exposed them. Poor urban areas are hotbeds of crime all the time.
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Still Crazy After All These Years
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#277155 - Mon Sep 05 2005 08:11 AM
Re: New Orleans
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Participant
Registered: Sun Aug 21 2005
Posts: 43
Loc: NYC
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Quote:
Quote:
Why are so many focusing on the few bad ones (please try not to call them "animals"--animals behave as God intended them to; "human" beings do not) as opposed to the many more good people, in the midst of one of the worst catastrophes in the history of this country? It matters NOT what crimes were committed during the course of FOUR LONG AND HORRIBLE DAYS OF WAITING FOR RESCUE. Know why? Because the biggest crime of all was the lateness of the response, the initial lack of action and/or interest of the federal government, and allowing people to suffer terribly. And that crime was committed not by the people of New Orleans, but by the very people whose fundamental job is to "protect" us. Oh, they are spinning damage control 24/7 now, but it's too late. Their callous indifference has captured the world's attention, and now they're going to pay for it. No more rubbish about the "criminals" please. Focus on the human suffering instead. Thank you.
So let me get this straight. Rape and murder are not important crimes if there is a great catastrophe before them? It is you who is putting the emphasis on the American government, but don't tell us to simply forget the behavior of these people. What separates us from the animal (among other things) is a system of law and order that is fundamental for a healthy society to survive. True, part of our system involves government aid at times of peril, and I agree with you, it seems like they have done a terrible job. But that doesn't excuse inexcusable behavior. Looting stores for food and water, alright. Looting stores for jewelry and money, a crime. Murdering and raping, a crime.
Of course, you are 100% correct. In my haste to respond, I neglected to mention that the truly serious crimes were despicable and intolerable. I did, however, mention that in my initial post. Sorry for the confusion...
Note about the use of the word "animals": Words like "monsters, savages, beasts" would not, I think, be deleted. Again, animals behave as God intended them to. Some people--who have free will and the ability to choose--do not.
_________________________
"But I could have told you, Vincent, this world was never meant for one as beautiful as you..."
~ Don McLean
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#277157 - Mon Sep 05 2005 09:53 AM
Re: New Orleans
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Prolific
Registered: Wed Oct 10 2001
Posts: 1127
Loc: Louisiana USA
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Very well said, chelsea. Thank you. Quote:
Could it be that last year was an election year? Or that the affected areas of Florida--Brother Jeb's state--are not only wealthy, but also mostly white?
No, it couldn't.
Lastly, I have nothing against Ray Nagin. The man is devastated over what has happened to his city and I feel deeply for him and the task before him. But he made critical mistakes and shoulders much of the responsibility for the aftermath of the storm. I understand his frustration but he must also take an honest look in the mirror. Perhaps he is doing so.
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In the truest sense, freedom cannot be bestowed; it must be achieved. - FDR
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#277158 - Mon Sep 05 2005 01:51 PM
Re: New Orleans
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Participant
Registered: Sun Aug 21 2005
Posts: 43
Loc: NYC
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"No, it couldn't."
Why, pray tell, would you believe that? It was only suggested in the Washington Post, the NY Times, and other local newspapers by 500 serious journalists!
Ray Nagin is NOT to blame for the failure of the US government to heed the ongoing cries from the scientific and environmental agencies for the past 5 years that the levees had to be strengthened, that New Orleans was in dire danger from one big hurricane, or the fact that NOBODY representing the federal government showed up for four days.
Sounds like you're a good ol' boy, way down there in L'eezeanna!
_________________________
"But I could have told you, Vincent, this world was never meant for one as beautiful as you..."
~ Don McLean
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#277159 - Mon Sep 05 2005 02:06 PM
Re: New Orleans
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Prolific
Registered: Wed Oct 10 2001
Posts: 1127
Loc: Louisiana USA
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Quote:
Sounds like you're a good ol' boy, way down there in L'eezeanna!
Why, because I have a different perspective than you? So much for tolerance. Perhaps your condescending and insulting response better explains the "slow" federal response than does racism. Southeners aren't taken seriously. The rest of the country views us as a bunch of back-water, illiterate, Bible-thumbin' hicks, right? No rush in helping out the good 'ole boys. If a few become alligator bait, all the better for the rest of the nation. That's as least as valid an explanation as "Bush hates blacks", even more so and you've illustrated it clearly.
Apparently, you skipped over my post re: the levee system. Even if Bush had funded it fully (which the budget didn't do even before he cut funding) it would have taken 20 years to rebuild the levees according to the Army Corps of Engineers. Why didn't Clinton fund it? Louisiana has been asking for funding for far longer than Bush has been in office. You may not understand this, but we have bigger fish to fry down here than playing the race card. You don't have a clue about how people are helping each other down here. You'd rather get your "news" from political rags trying to score points. We're trying to save lives and get families reunitied and back on their feet. Btw, no one takes the NY Times seriously anymore.
_________________________
In the truest sense, freedom cannot be bestowed; it must be achieved. - FDR
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#277162 - Mon Sep 05 2005 05:53 PM
Re: New Orleans
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Participant
Registered: Sun Aug 21 2005
Posts: 43
Loc: NYC
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Quote:
Why, because I have a different perspective than you? So much for tolerance. Perhaps your condescending and insulting response better explains the "slow" federal response than does racism. Southeners aren't taken seriously. The rest of the country views us as a bunch of back-water, illiterate, Bible-thumbin' hicks, right? No rush in helping out the good 'ole boys. If a few become alligator bait, all the better for the rest of the nation. That's as least as valid an explanation as "Bush hates blacks", even more so and you've illustrated it clearly.
Apparently, you skipped over my post re: the levee system. Even if Bush had funded it fully (which the budget didn't do even before he cut funding) it would have taken 20 years to rebuild the levees according to the Army Corps of Engineers. Why didn't Clinton fund it? Louisiana has been asking for funding for far longer than Bush has been in office. You may not understand this, but we have bigger fish to fry down here than playing the race card. You don't have a clue about how people are helping each other down here. You'd rather get your "news" from political rags trying to score points. We're trying to save lives and get families reunitied and back on their feet. Btw, no one takes the NY Times seriously anymore.
You totally and completely misinterpreted my words. Sorry about the "good ol' boys" remark, but it was meant as a tease/joke, not an insult. You could not be more wrong about my "view of Southerners." As a matter of fact, I have spent the last five days trying to help my neighbors, originally from New Orleans, find their family. I've been posting their names on every contact/message board I can find, and calling or visiting them every single day to comfort and reassure them. I do not, and have NEVER, played "race cards." My neighbors are of African-American descent, and I love them as dearly as I love my own "white" Italian-American (and bigoted) family. I also know that the levee situation was also part of Clinton's regime, and that he dropped the ball too. This is a tragedy, not a political football game, and my only true concern is for ALL of the people and animals so terribly hurt by the hurricane and flood waters. I've also donated quite a lot of money toward this disaster, and if I were in better health, I can assure you that I would have already been down there, volunteering to help any way I could. I sometimes forget that my writing can seem sharp-tongued and sarcastic, and for that I apologize. But please do not judge me by words alone. My actions speak much more loudly.
Sorry, Sue, it won't happen again.
_________________________
"But I could have told you, Vincent, this world was never meant for one as beautiful as you..."
~ Don McLean
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#277163 - Mon Sep 05 2005 07:10 PM
Re: New Orleans
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Participant
Registered: Sat Aug 13 2005
Posts: 35
Loc: California
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For Copagio - New Orleans is about 65% African-American. About 28% of the population lives below the official poverty level. There is a very small middle class. New Orleans is unique among American cities in that it's demographic approximates that of the third world - extremes of wealth and poverty and very little in the middle. Poverty in NO is, incidentally, very extreme - quite often they don't have what we consider necessities - indoor plumbing for instance. Add to this the usual problems of a large urban area - gangs, crime, and corruption and you can see why aid becomes an extraordinary challenge.
I know it's been said before, but donate money, give blood, do whatever you can. These are Americans. These are human beings. And, while helping these people get on their feet again, perhaps we should also begin to address the economic and ethnic inequities that made it difficult if not impossible for so many of them to leave when they should have.
Trying to place blame at this point is counterproductive, but recognizing the problems and beginning to work to correct them should be a mandate for all of us.
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#277164 - Mon Sep 05 2005 08:05 PM
Re: New Orleans
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Moderator
Registered: Tue May 15 2001
Posts: 14384
Loc: Australia
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Thanks Windcat - interesting and a great post all round. Makes it easier to understand how hard it must have been for so many peole to leave even with such a strong warning to do so.
Is it known how many people are still voluntarily there - The ones that won't leave their homes or pets? And how are they surviving? One reporter spoke about the flood water being so toxic it made a rash/burn on a national guardsman.
And on that - what is the National Guard, like a home army yes? (anyone know what Aust. equivalent is?)
Edited by Copago (Mon Sep 05 2005 08:06 PM)
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#277165 - Mon Sep 05 2005 08:32 PM
Re: New Orleans
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Participant
Registered: Sun Aug 21 2005
Posts: 43
Loc: NYC
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The news reported tonight that the National Guard is now allowing people to bring their pets with them. I saw one women on a military helicopter with her dog lapping water from a bottle, so I know it's true (i.e., not read in a "political rag.") Unfortunately, so many were left behind, stranded on trees, rooftops, etc., they too need help desperately. Many animal shelters in the NYC area have already begun accepting those pets that were abandoned or lost in the confusion. How I wish I had a farm right now, I'd take them all in if I could...
_________________________
"But I could have told you, Vincent, this world was never meant for one as beautiful as you..."
~ Don McLean
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#277168 - Tue Sep 06 2005 01:30 AM
Re: New Orleans
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Pure Diamond
Registered: Fri May 18 2001
Posts: 123698
Loc: Canton
Ohio USA
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This is fascinating to read through. I'm thinking it's like one of those many "microcosms" again. Put all of us underwater, starving, scared silly, stranded (if we can only imagine it) and none of US can even land on one way to sum it up? Is it any wonder the ball got dropped all over the place by the government? They're just feeble humans, really - even though we instinctively expect them to be more. I strongly differ with any concensus that Louisiana was deemed unimportant on any level. By anybody. I just think no one expected this storm to be so brutal and the aftermath of it to be so far reaching. I haven't said anything in here because I'm very far away from the tragic situation and have to rely on media reports (which I usually distrust overall). I know many people from the southern US and I see a common theme in them: they are loyal to their land and everything it means. New Orleans will rebuild, because of that vigor. Glad to see that they are starting to pump that water out. The next step, if they didn't, was cholera [or worse]. I will say, too, that I saw an interview with that Louisiana governor. Seemed like a cold fish to me - but, again, my thinking so doesn't matter all that much.
I'll shut up now.
_________________________
"The best teacher is not the one who knows most but the one who is most capable of reducing knowledge to that simple compound of the obvious and wonderful." ... H. L. Mencken
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#277169 - Tue Sep 06 2005 02:43 AM
Re: New Orleans
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Multiloquent
Registered: Tue Dec 28 2004
Posts: 2813
Loc: Hertfordshire<br>England UK
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According to reports I've watched on CNN, there were many expert warnings that Katrina would be brutal, would breach the levees, would cause flooding on a massive scale, and there would be massive loss of life. Not my 'opinion', just what I've seen reported.
The levees as I understand are designed to withstand a category three hurricane, but Katrina was known to be category five, so presumably you don't need to be that much of an expert to recognise the huge risk.
Latest reports are that about a third of New Orleans police have been lost or deserted, and I saw interviews with some of their colleagues who were scathing in their criticism of those who've deserted. I reckon they're just being human, and if still alive, are thinking more about their families than anything else. The New Orleans police who are still working are on duty 24 hours a day, enduring everything from gun battles to recovery of bloated corpses, all in conditions of stench, heat and pollution that are almost beyond imagination. They all deserve a lot more than medals, and I'm sure that any so-called 'deserters' will soon return to help.
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#277170 - Tue Sep 06 2005 04:00 AM
Re: New Orleans
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Star Poster
Registered: Thu Oct 07 1999
Posts: 10282
Loc: New York USA
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Quote:
Is it any wonder the ball got dropped all over the place by the government?
Sorry, I'm not willing to attribute all the bumbling and delay to "human frailty" and let it go at that. I don't expect more than that from my government, I DEMAND it. And I also demand accountability.
On top of the horrific suffering endured by the people who were stranded, lost loved ones, homes, pets, all personal property, and businesses, the government inflicted even more suffering by abandoning these people, leaving them stranded on rooftops or herded into shelters without adequate food, water or toilet facilities.
In a city where such a high percentage of the population lives below the poverty line, officials know that these people, plus many more who are economically marginal, are unlikely to comply with an evacuation order, simply because they lack the necessary resources (cars, money) to comply with such orders. They lack the ability to get out of the city and the money to go elsewhere. So, where were the free public buses to get these people out of NO and to safe shelters before Katrina hit? Why wasn't it anticipated how many would be left behind in NO if that wasn't done? Is this "human frailty" or frank indifference to the plight of those who are poor and mainly black?
Why weren't the security problems anticipated and prepared for beforehand? Any time the electricity goes out you have security problems, and, at the very least, they knew the lights might go out, even if they didn't count on the massive flooding. Where was the preparedness to insure a sense of order and security? Is this "human frailty" too?
And not having adequate food and water supplies ready, and the means to deliver it swiftly, on top of not having adequate shelter resources, created a massive tragedy--and a horrific national shame--almost as great as the blow dealt by Katrina. Rescuers were not available, food and water was not available, medical resources were not available, shelter was not available.
At a time of the greatest need, the government profoundly betrayed these people, and, by extension, betrayed our entire nation. Is this simply "human frailty" too, or is it a profound lack of leadership and competence from the White House on down?
Did the government have to be publicly shamed by all the devastating media images before they took decisive action to fully address the problem? How can the delay be explained, and can it ever be excused? Did the director of FEMA deserve a pat on the back from Bush, or would a call for his resignation have been more appropriate?
This is not just a matter of pointing fingers to ascribe blame, or scapegoating for political advantage. It is the far more important issue of government accountability in a time of profound national crisis. We expect, and rightly so, that our government can anticipate, and be prepared for, disasters of any sort. And we just witnessed a government not up to that task.
This time it was a hurricane, next time it might be a terrorist radiation attack. Will we be better prepared and mobilized when the next major disaster occurs?
Will we need an independent committee, like the 9/11 Commission, to look into all the lapses in command and delivery of services we have just witnessed?
And the aftermath of this disaster has left incredible numbers of people homeless and unemployed. Who will address a "refugee" problem of such magnitude that spans several states? Who will provide the resources for the long-term resettlement of all these people? Who will fund the rebuilding of homes, businesses, and affordable low cost housing? How will we provide employment, health care, education, and the basic necessities of living to these people? How will these people be cared for in both the short and long term? Are we about to see another massive government betrayal?
Will Bush hold fast to his policy of tax cuts for the rich at a time that the government needs to raise revenue to help these people? Will the economic drain of the, now largely unpopular, war in Iraq, prevent adequate resources from being delivered to our own citizens who have been devastated by this disaster? Will "liberal" still remain a dirty word in the face of such heartbreaking and overwhelming need from the federal government?
Incompetence, and basic lack of compassion, cannot just be chalked up to "human frailty", not in the richest and strongest country in the word. We must all demand more, and we must all demand accountability for the tragic fiasco we have just witnessed. If our government cannot act decisively, swiftly, and effectively in such situations, they are dangerously incompetent, and we are all in peril.
Edited by chelseabelle (Tue Sep 06 2005 05:03 AM)
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#277171 - Tue Sep 06 2005 08:59 AM
Re: New Orleans
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Participant
Registered: Sun Aug 21 2005
Posts: 43
Loc: NYC
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Chelseabelle, Your profoundly insightful assessment of the situation as it is (and was last week) should be printed on the front page of every newspaper and news magazine in this country. I'm proud that you and I reside in the same city that endured the horrors of 9/11, which may have allowed us to understand the even worse devastation of the people of New Orleans and the entire affected region. Thank you for your excellent contribution on this tragic topic. Accountability MUST be demanded, and when the Congressional hearings begin as to the many failures on the part of our government regarding this avoidable nightmare, perhaps then we will finally know the truth.
Note to Roger2: Former First Lady Barbara Bush visited the Houston Astrodome yesterday. Her comments? "And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway, so this is working very well for them," the Bush family's matriarch chuckled as she spoke on National Public Radio's "Marketplace" program." This, from the same woman who, when questioned about the war in Iraq, responded (and I'm paraphrasing here) "I can't waste my beautiful mind on things like that."
I have no desire to risk the wrath again of any members or moderators, so I will limit my reaction to the above with one sentence: Has this family completely lost touch with reality???
_________________________
"But I could have told you, Vincent, this world was never meant for one as beautiful as you..."
~ Don McLean
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#277172 - Tue Sep 06 2005 10:49 AM
Re: New Orleans
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Pure Diamond
Registered: Fri May 18 2001
Posts: 123698
Loc: Canton
Ohio USA
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Let me clarify what I meant in my post: we can sit and demand action(s) and assign accountability left and right. I think I was correct to note that the "ball was dropped" on many levels in this. Now, what is best to do? Blame those who dropped it or just get that ball picked up? I'd say the latter. Let's hope this gets somewhat fixed ASAP - there will be plenty of time to vote people out and pontificate about it later. Many heads will be on the block about all this later. And they should be, in my opinion. But, right now, recovery is much more important than who dropped the ball. We're STILL trying to figure out (after 4 years) who screwed up on 9-11. In the meantime the city got back on a sensible path after that whole mess. We'll be doing that for many years to come. So what? None of that part of it changes the ultimate tragedy of that or this.
It almost sounds like most would rather gab about this situation than to get off their butts and really do something about it. I'm one of those people, I am sad to assure anybody.
*Didn't care for the reference to this "family" losing touch with reality, either. Most of us just know how empty words can sometimes be, and that's all there is to that*
_________________________
"The best teacher is not the one who knows most but the one who is most capable of reducing knowledge to that simple compound of the obvious and wonderful." ... H. L. Mencken
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#277174 - Tue Sep 06 2005 12:21 PM
Re: New Orleans
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Pure Diamond
Registered: Fri May 18 2001
Posts: 123698
Loc: Canton
Ohio USA
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As such, you're not the only one allowed to get your "kitty tail" in a knot, Paula. If you think you are then you have just tripped over said tail one more time. We are expected to say what is on our minds. True enough. We are also expected to at least try to gather what is in the minds of those who respond as best we can. That's it for me on this thread. I don't see, now, where it is either informative or hopeful anymore. But you all have at it.
_________________________
"The best teacher is not the one who knows most but the one who is most capable of reducing knowledge to that simple compound of the obvious and wonderful." ... H. L. Mencken
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#277176 - Tue Sep 06 2005 01:16 PM
Re: New Orleans
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Forum Adept
Registered: Sun Sep 09 2001
Posts: 199
Loc: Albany California USA
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Quote:
Quote:
The news reported tonight that the National Guard is now allowing people to bring their pets with them. I saw one women on a military helicopter with her dog lapping water from a bottle, so I know it's true (i.e., not read in a "political rag.")
No, actually, it's not true.
They've been putting animals in with the people on the helicopters since this started. It's when they get off the helicopters and get bussed out of the city that they are separated from the animals.
When the people have to get on the bus is when they are separated and the animals are given to the human society for safekeeping. The Humane Society is going to try and reunite the petowners and the pets later on, but right now the pets are not allowed on the buses.
There are lots of animal groups in the area helping, too. One that I donated an EZ-up canopy to is called Noahswish.org. They place pets with foster homes until their owners can take them back.
--Robyn
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