#284198 - Mon Nov 07 2005 08:49 PM
Thank Goodness They Were Stopped
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Multiloquent
Registered: Mon Feb 10 2003
Posts: 2167
Loc: Sydney NSW Australia
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Quote:
Australia foils major attack
Authorities foiled what they believed to be a large-scale terrorist attack, arresting 15 people during raids in the country's two biggest cities of Sydney and Melbourne, the Australian Broadcasting Corp. reported on Tuesday.
"I am satisfied that we have disrupted what I would regard as the final stages of a large-scale terrorist attack, or the launch of a large-scale terrorist attack here in Australia," New South Wales Police Commissioner Ken Moroney told ABC radio
From here. and the following is from here.
Quote:
A man shot by police in Sydney's west is one of several people arrested in a series of anti-terrorist raids across the city, police say.
A man aged in his 20s was shot in the chest on Wilson Road, Green Valley, about 9am (AEST), a NSW police spokesman said.
NSW Police Commissioner Ken Moroney has confirmed the man was shot by a police officer.
An ambulance spokeswoman said a police officer received "scuffle-related" minor injuries during the incident.
Police said roads were closed in the Green Valley area after a suspicious package was found on Wilson Road.
"Officers from the NSW Police Rescue and Bomb Disposal Unit are examining the scene," the police spokesman said.
He said preliminary investigations revealed the injured man was one of several people arrested in raids.
A joint police press release earlier said eight suspects had been arrested in Sydney, but NSW police later said only seven had been taken into custody.
"During the overnight raids, seven people have been arrested, including the man who was shot," the spokesman said.
Anyone that hasn`t had their head buried in the sand has been expecting an act of terrorism to occur on Australian soil.
The people that were arrested have been observed taking photos of major buildings in Melbourne.
A large amount of chemicals have been confiscated at several of the houses raided. The chemicals are the same as those used in the latest Bali bombings. Oops I mean London.Edit.
Mohamad,Ahmed,Ali and their friends were stopped by raids by 400 police. The man shot was firing upon those police officers.
Some of what I`ve typed hasn`t been reported on the web yet, but was reported in the news programs here just now.
Edited by damnsuicidalroos (Tue Nov 08 2005 01:24 AM)
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#284200 - Tue Nov 08 2005 01:59 AM
Re: Thank Goodness They Were Stopped
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Prolific
Registered: Wed Mar 30 2005
Posts: 1636
Loc: Canberra ACT Australia
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Quote:
A Melbourne court has been told a man allegedly connected to a Melbourne terrorist group wanted to seek revenge for actions in Iraq.
You'd best get to the full story quickly at the ABC. That kind of sentiment won't be allowed to stay up for long (funny how it hasn't been reported on any of the commercial sources...) Further evidence of the terrible bias of the ABC!
I'm also particularly fond of this highly specific allegation
Quote:
A New South Wales police charge sheet says the men have been charged with conspiracy to do an act in preparation to do a terrorism act, mainly to manufacture explosives.
But has anyone told the cook to tell the dairy maid?
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#284201 - Tue Nov 08 2005 02:46 AM
Re: Thank Goodness They Were Stopped
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Multiloquent
Registered: Mon Feb 10 2003
Posts: 2167
Loc: Sydney NSW Australia
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Thanks for the ABC link Ing, I particularly enjoyed the following quote from one of the links.
Quote:
"This is of course a very big surprise to the Muslim community that you know this happened,"
I believe that for this news to be a "very big surprise" it indicates that a whole community has its collective head in the sand.
It will be interesting to see how this plays out in court and if the current charges are just a stepping stone to other charges.
Edited by damnsuicidalroos (Tue Nov 08 2005 02:49 AM)
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#284202 - Tue Nov 08 2005 03:24 AM
Re: Thank Goodness They Were Stopped
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Prolific
Registered: Wed Mar 30 2005
Posts: 1636
Loc: Canberra ACT Australia
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That's okay, Roos, always a pleasure to share information! I guess the quote you picked out shows a couple of things: 1) even the ABC can make mistakes in grammar (and that mistake in grammar also indicates that the quoted Mr Mehboob is enough of an 'Australian' to use terms like 'you know' in the middle of sentences!); and 2) how taking things out of context can give a completely different impression of the overall story. For those outside of Australia there is a little background to this event. The quote in the story Roos linked to above continues Quote:
"But I guess for some people it wasn't, because the way events have been unfolding in the last week or so - there was some expectation that something like that would occur."
This refers to our Prime Minister's calling of an 'emergency' press conference last week to announce that he was recalling the Senate immediately to push through an urgent amendment to our Anti-Terrorism legislation. The full story on that is here ABC last week.
And now I have to go and watch The Bill - there's a storyline about an anti-terrorist act of terrorism! 
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#284203 - Tue Nov 08 2005 04:08 AM
Re: Thank Goodness They Were Stopped
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Multiloquent
Registered: Mon Feb 10 2003
Posts: 2167
Loc: Sydney NSW Australia
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Ah thanks again for filling in the blanks I left Ing. Though of course Mr Mehboob didn`t refer to the fact that Muslims actually were not surprised but merely that "some people were not".
Your comment that he is enough of an 'Australian" made me recall the accents of the British suicide bombers, and the very un-British acts they commited upon their fellow Brits.
I believe that is part,well all of in fact, of the problem in this latest drama. Religion has taken over the dominant role in deciding who the enemy is and not the policies of foreign governments.
It was reported that the man that was shot after shooting at police was one of the few not taken at home but later that morning, another gun was found in his backpack.
Edited by damnsuicidalroos (Tue Nov 08 2005 04:22 AM)
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#284204 - Tue Nov 08 2005 08:44 AM
Re: Thank Goodness They Were Stopped
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Forum Adept
Registered: Thu Oct 13 2005
Posts: 127
Loc: New York
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Oh those poor misunderstood muslims !
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#284205 - Tue Nov 08 2005 09:06 AM
Re: Thank Goodness They Were Stopped
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Multiloquent
Registered: Wed Nov 12 2003
Posts: 2165
Loc: Nebraska USA
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Don't make a fight out of this. I'm glad that the situation was taken well in hand, and that it seems that people are not ready to villify the rest of the Muslim community there.
The sad thing IS that religion has become the deciding factor about whom is the enemy. It's false. It's stupid. It is far better to concentrate on actually finding people who ARE ENEMIES.
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Goodbye Ruth & Betty, my beautiful grandmothers. Betty Kuzara 1921 - April 5, 2008 Ruth Kellison 1925 - Dec 27, 2007
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#284206 - Tue Nov 08 2005 09:14 AM
Re: Thank Goodness They Were Stopped
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Forum Adept
Registered: Thu Oct 13 2005
Posts: 127
Loc: New York
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I couldn't agree more about finding the enemy and I know exactly where to start.
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#284207 - Tue Nov 08 2005 09:57 AM
Re: Thank Goodness They Were Stopped
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Administrator
Registered: Sun Dec 19 1999
Posts: 38005
Loc: Jersey Channel Islands
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A warning BEFORE this thread get acrimonious. Two threads have been closed recently, that is quite a high number for this forum.
We are not going to have yet another rehash of previous threads.
It would be sad if we end up having to close down the CE forum altogether.
Comment only on the item posted, no general slanging matches.
Thank you.
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#284208 - Tue Nov 08 2005 10:36 AM
Re: Thank Goodness They Were Stopped
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Multiloquent
Registered: Wed Nov 12 2003
Posts: 2165
Loc: Nebraska USA
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Apologies, Sue. The last part of my comment was a reply to something roos said. I believe it is far more productive, as can be seen by what happened in Australia, to concentrate on finding the enemies themselves, rather than broadly defining 'the enemy' as a whole group of people. If you disregard racial, religious or other forms of prejudice and concentrate on the facts, then the enemies can be found without laying blame too broadly.
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Goodbye Ruth & Betty, my beautiful grandmothers. Betty Kuzara 1921 - April 5, 2008 Ruth Kellison 1925 - Dec 27, 2007
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#284209 - Tue Nov 08 2005 10:52 AM
Re: Thank Goodness They Were Stopped
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Administrator
Registered: Sun Dec 19 1999
Posts: 38005
Loc: Jersey Channel Islands
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The story even made the front page of our local newspaper.
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#284210 - Tue Nov 08 2005 11:40 AM
Re: Thank Goodness They Were Stopped
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Forum Adept
Registered: Thu Oct 13 2005
Posts: 127
Loc: New York
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Sorry Sue, I am not trying to start a war. I just see things a bit differently than some others do.
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#284211 - Tue Nov 08 2005 05:51 PM
Re: Thank Goodness They Were Stopped
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Prolific
Registered: Wed Mar 30 2005
Posts: 1636
Loc: Canberra ACT Australia
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Quote:
The story even made the front page of our local newspaper.
Wow Sue, that's a surprise. May I ask what the thrust of that story was? I imagine it was along the lines of 'brave boys in blue foil terror plot'. Not that I'm for a second saying it's a bad thing if/that they did, it's just that it seems rather unclear whether there was actually a plot to be foiled.
The trouble with this particular story is the context in which the events unfolded. As I mentioned earlier, there was an issue last week over just why the Senate had to be recalled 'urgently' (at a cost of $?) to change one word in a piece of legislation which is up for renewal/debate anyway. The new legislation itself has been the source of some controversy also, as an issue of State vs Federal responsibility/power, and also of just how much 'we the people' should be told and/or allowed to have a say in our laws before they are passed. One more piece of background to this is that the balance of power in Australia is in a very odd position just now. The federal Government is Liberal*, whereas every state and territory has a Labour* Government. The (Federal) Government also holds the balance of power in the Senate, an almost unprecedented situation.
I guess the overall thrust of what I've been trying to get across in my good-natured banter with Roos (I hope you've enjoyed clashing wits as much as I have, Roos!) is that you have to take this situation in context. It isn't a simple matter of 'good' versus 'evil', 'us' versus 'them'. I couldn't agree more about not casting 'the enemy' in terms of religion or race, but who is this enemy? If you're talking about the bigger threat to my everyday way of life, it's not 'the terrorists' I'm worried about.
*And just a quick note about the party political system in Australia in relation to those in other countries (anyone please feel free to correct me, this is just from my observations). Despite the name, the Liberal party is similar to the Conservatives in the UK and the Republicans in the US. Labour in Aus has a rough equivalency with Labour in the UK, both more on the US Democrat side of things.
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#284212 - Wed Nov 09 2005 01:15 AM
Re: Thank Goodness They Were Stopped
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Multiloquent
Registered: Mon Feb 10 2003
Posts: 2167
Loc: Sydney NSW Australia
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That`s a nice information background you have presented there Ing. That is indeed is the problem that we are faced with at, this stage anyway. Is it legal to charge these people with conspiracy to commit terrorist attacks if all they have been doing is talking about doing it? Though the evidence,that we have seen at this stage, that indicates they have been stockpiling explosive manufactoring chemicals would seem to be more evidence of planning to commit a crime would seem to be fairly convincing proof of wrong doing. I believe that this shall be a very watchable trial to follow. The civil rights part of it should alone take months to get through. Quote:
(I hope you've enjoyed clashing wits as much as I have, Roos!)
As soon as I actually have to use my wits I certainly shall enjoy doing so Ing. 
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#284213 - Wed Nov 09 2005 04:09 AM
Re: Thank Goodness They Were Stopped
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Administrator
Registered: Sun Dec 19 1999
Posts: 38005
Loc: Jersey Channel Islands
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Foiled attack on AustraliaA potentially 'catastophic' double terrorist attack on Australia was foiled by police today. I think I had better see if it is scanable (newspaper print isn't always) then post it. It goes over to a second page and has a photo of a large man in a black space suit being strapped in by a smaller man in white. 
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#284215 - Wed Nov 09 2005 06:59 AM
Re: Thank Goodness They Were Stopped
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Administrator
Registered: Sun Dec 19 1999
Posts: 38005
Loc: Jersey Channel Islands
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If you want to send me a PM with an email address I will scan the article and send it.
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#284216 - Wed Nov 09 2005 07:06 AM
Re: Thank Goodness They Were Stopped
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Prolific
Registered: Wed Mar 30 2005
Posts: 1636
Loc: Canberra ACT Australia
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#284217 - Wed Nov 09 2005 07:26 AM
Re: Thank Goodness They Were Stopped
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Administrator
Registered: Sun Dec 19 1999
Posts: 38005
Loc: Jersey Channel Islands
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Done
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#284219 - Thu Nov 10 2005 02:34 PM
Re: Thank Goodness They Were Stopped
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Moderator
Registered: Tue May 15 2001
Posts: 14384
Loc: Australia
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Granted there was no attack but when is the best time to arrest people who are planning one?
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#284220 - Thu Nov 10 2005 11:15 PM
Re: Thank Goodness They Were Stopped
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Multiloquent
Registered: Mon Feb 10 2003
Posts: 2167
Loc: Sydney NSW Australia
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Obviously the police thought they had enough evidence to arrest and charge the men involved. Whilst a few have "only",at this stage, been charged with belonging to a terrorist organization it`s still a criminal offence. One of the typical things about this event when compared to other similar events is the fact that muslim leaders are saying how worried they are about being attacked by "rednecks" because of the negative impact the news has had on Australian societies view of muslims. I am bored with their leaders stating this as the actual impact is minimal. I also question the use of such claims. The following is from a site that refers solely to the Bosnian war but if I ignore the geographical names I find it presents my view of how these somewhat sensational claims come about. Quote:
This was an example of propaganda projection, or inversion, “zamena teza” in Serbian, psychologically projecting one’s own crimes onto the enemy. The Bosnian Muslim forces were routinely and systematically cutting or slitting the throats of Bosnian Serb civilians and soldiers. This Bosnian Muslim war crime was then imputed to the Bosnian Serbs. Swiss psychologist Carl Gustav Jung termed this “the shadow”, projecting the worst vices and crimes onto an Enemy or Other. The person consciously blocks out his or her own guilt or knowledge of culpability, denies or suppresses it, while projection into onto another, or the Other, the Enemy, the Shadow. A schizophrenic orientation results where all positive traits are conscious while all negative traits are transferred to the Other. It is the result of a paranoid orientation. Moreover, the paranoid exhibits infantile characteristics that vacillate between sadistic domination to submissive or masochistic victimization. This is demonstrated in the Srebrenica case where Bosnian Muslim troops slit the throats of Serbs and decapitate them and mutilate their bodies in the sadistic domination cycle or phase but then shift to the victimization phase when they become victims. The infantile paranoid personality is unbalanced and unstable and thus vacillates between sadistic cruelty to passive victimization. It takes one to know one. The propagandist accuses the enemy of committing crimes which in fact the propagandist himself is guilty of. The propagandist merely projects these crimes on the Enemy. In short, the propagandist looks into a mirror when devising a propaganda construct for the Enemy
From here for anyone wanting to read more about Bosnia btw.
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#284221 - Fri Nov 11 2005 12:00 AM
Re: Thank Goodness They Were Stopped
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Multiloquent
Registered: Wed Nov 12 2003
Posts: 2165
Loc: Nebraska USA
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An interesting read, Roos. I'm sure we could get into a great discussion about that. The part about shared culpability especially. I'll also say that the reason someone might come to the conclusion that their good name will be defamed by an event could actually be because that might be what happens. And that there are some actual victims in situations like what happened in the Balkans, and those victims might be perfectly legitimately placing the blame on the ones who victimized them, regardless of what actions a group who shares a broad definition with them might have taken.
In the US, when people see a Nebraska Cornhuskers (American) home football game on TV, say maybe Nebraska vs Texas, the media invariably shows a picture of our stadium, and then some footage of windswept corn fields. No pictures of the thriving metropolis which actually surrounds the stadium, mind you. There's plenty of news tidbits about farming in Nebraska available on a national level as well. Heck, our governor just got plucked from our (willing) hands and taken to Washington to be the Secretary of Agriculture. There are plenty of hick farmers in Nebraska, too. But it isn't because I AM a hick farmer that I get upset when this type of one-sided media coverage results in it being assumed that Nebraskans, even those from the capital city where the stadium is located, are all hick farmers.
Likewise, those who, say, for instance, lived in Bosnia, were Muslim, and were victims, like the two girls my sister visited Europe with a few summers ago, have a right to blame the people who victimized them, and they have a right to desire that they not be discriminated against because of their faith or ethnicity, without also being saddled with the "hate in others what we hate most in ourselves" attitude. If you HAVE been a victim, it is possible to hate the attitude which made you a victim without it being a shadow of your own feelings. I'll also say the same would be true for the non-Muslims involved in that war.
I understand that this might be a different situation. You're talking about leaders, not individuals, people who speak for their group, not people who are speaking just for themselves. I'm also very interested in the language used. I made a statement on another thread (trust me, this is just for illustrative purposes, I have no interest in actually opening this can of ideological worms) that went something like, "I have more trouble with overbearing and selfrightious Christians than I do with Muslims." Someone decided to interpret it, despite the fact that it was written exactly as it was meant. There is no implication that I think all Christians are selfrightious or overbearing, that I think Christians are moreso than Muslims, or anything else other than my personal life being more disrupted by Christians with those qualities than by Muslims. Hmm, I also know that not everyone is specific with their language, and that is why my statement was interpreted as meaning more than what it actually said; because many people do not say what they mean. However, I'd be very interested in the language being used. (No surpise, I'm sure, that the way language is used interests me.) How they use the word Redneck, and what they mean by it might make for a delightful conversation. (No rednecks here, by the way. None. Absolutely. Wait, the team colors you ask? Why, Red and White. Why?)
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Goodbye Ruth & Betty, my beautiful grandmothers. Betty Kuzara 1921 - April 5, 2008 Ruth Kellison 1925 - Dec 27, 2007
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#284222 - Fri Nov 11 2005 12:33 AM
Re: Thank Goodness They Were Stopped
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Multiloquent
Registered: Mon Feb 10 2003
Posts: 2167
Loc: Sydney NSW Australia
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Quote:
I'll also say that the reason someone might come to the conclusion that their good name will be defamed by an event could actually be because that might be what happens
If in fact they do have a good name to defame in the first place Lothruin, if in they are not being delusional about having a good name.
The Sydney suburbs the men were arrested in are well known for the criminal activities carried out by young muslims living in them. That`s not just my say so but a fact of life in Sydney.
Quote:
Muslim leader warns of 'redneck backlash'
09nov05
A KEY Muslim leader has warned radical clerics to tone down their rhetoric and has voiced fears of a redneck backlash against his community.
President of the Australian Federation of Islamic Councils Dr Ameer Ali said he planned to meet with government ministers today to seek greater protection for his community.
"I want to get more information about what has happened over the last 48 hours and secondly I also want the Government to assure my community that they will not allow the rednecks in this country to exploit this situation and create disharmony in this society," Dr Ali said.
"My people are afraid that it is on occasions like this the rednecks can create havoc."
Dr Ali said violence against Muslims was on the rise before the raids occurred in Sydney and Melbourne this week.
"I come from WA and even before the raid there was one incident, I'm sure about it, where a bunch of youngsters entered a Muslim house and attacked a lady in the house and later admitted to police that they did that because they are Muslims," Dr Ali said.
"So this racially motivated violence should be stopped. "The law enforcers (should) give some extra protection to the places of worship, the Muslim schools and areas where the Muslims are living in concentration so there will be more police patrols taking place so these elements can be kept out." Dr Ali said he also had a message for radical clerics.
That quote is from here.
I just posted that so you could make your own mind up about whom this leader is refering to when saying redneck, I suspect it`s non-muslims in general but of course I might be wrong.
I find the way this typical leader says "my people" interesting, I`m thinking he hasn`t heard of or believe in assimilation.
The really predictable fact is that when there are more police vehicles patrolling muslim areas [and how I hate the way that makes Sydney sound like a city with separate states within] the muslims will suddenly start crying out that they are being targeted by the police. I have seen this happen before and the claims of harrassment and victimization are starting to fall on deaf ears.
Edited by damnsuicidalroos (Fri Nov 11 2005 12:57 AM)
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