I would love the NYPD to come down here, but would they not be foreigners?

Mikey, you are making a very silly point here- I think that most police forces in the world are trained in the same ways, and are very competent.

Perhaps this is not the appropriate forum to mention that New York has one of the highest murder proportions in the world, but I would be very careful about belittling other nationalities.

Agony, that's what I would think as well, but my comments were actually directed at people I know in the US, and it interests me how that translates to other nations where most of the people are probably NOT immigrants. I mean, if a person here in the US, 4th generation American of german and swedish ancestry can justify considering themselves American, at the same time calling the 2nd or 3rd generation American with Mexican or Pakistani heritage a "foreigner" then I can't imagine what it must be like in a country where the national identity is so much more specific.

Unfortunately, the sort of bigotry that exists here in the US is directed at specific populations. A German, English or Swedish person who's just gotten their citizenship is most likely going to be considered an American as soon as they have it. I mean, we've got immigrants from Europe in fairly high public offices. But a Mexican family who's well established in the US, into their 3rd or 4th generation, is still going to be considered foreign. And to top it all off, there are plenty of people here in the US who are just as likely to lump Native Americans into that "foreigner" catagory because their idea of American is specifically European in nature. When white America won their freedom from Britain, the natives were just savages and not citizens, (understand I'm speaking from their point of view, not mine) and that established the precedent by which many people still view Americanism. It's just crazy, and hypocritical, and in many cases just downright wrong, morally, but also factually. (Of course, these are the same people, whos' good German grandmothers spoke German to other good German grandmothers while they were making schnitzel or streudle, but they complain about how Mexican or Asian immigrants don't speak English right away...)

So I can identify a little with what's going on in France. But I have to imagine it's much, much worse. I know there are families in France who have hundreds and hundreds of years of Frenchness behind them. I'm sure it's easy to view people who are not ethnically French as interlopers. Easier than in America, and it seems to me it's pretty easy in America, so that's a frightening thought.

It's even more complicated than you might imagine. Some of the problems between Magrhebins or people from the Northern Africa, Morocco, Tunisia and Algeria and the French of 'souche' or French who've been in France for many generations, are exacerbated by the War of Algerian Independence, 1954-62.

Because the Algerians fought against the colons, AKA pieds-noirs and then basically ejected them without any of their goods or in fact, anything these people ended up in France with their legendary 'suitcases' or death as they said.
The pieds-noirs made up about 10.5 percent of the population and were basically folks who went there to set up shop as there were good opportunities for farming etc.
There were many Alsatians (one theory about the black foot designation is their black boots), Jewish populations from all over, Spaniards, Italians and others who had settled there and founded things.
France was forced to quickly put up housing projects and accomodate this massive exodus of people without income, jobs, or homes.
They built their way back up. Pieds-noirs are part of the social scene in France, as they have a typical way of life and it's seen in films, stories and humour.

However, the complication arises when the Algerians come to France looking for work when their own system doesn't work quite as well as they'd planned under independence.
Where do you think they were housed? In the same projects that the pieds-noirs were living.
Naturally, you had a bit of animosity.
At first however, things went reasonably well under the circumstances as they share culinary traditions and other things. But this is because the first Algerians were often single men without their families. When their families came, their children were born in France and had little knowledge of their native country.
Another monkey wrench in this complicated picture, the Harkis were the soldiers or Algerian muslims faithful to French Algeria. They were treated like interlopers, lumped in with them, and did not receive any help when they had to in fact, flee for their lives or experience retribution.
There are many areas of France where Harkis settled and frequent demonstrations.

The current crisis is exacerbated as Vendome pointed out, by the French tendency to attempt to assimilate everyone who comes to France, but the flaw in that project is when, they cannot compete without the cultural background that many 'long term' French have. The teaching of the French language is very difficult as it stands, but if you don't speak French at home and only use slang outside of the classroom, you'll see a very broad gap in the education.

However, as even 'long date' French have enormous difficulties affording a decent lifestyle and younger French are looking at a dim future in terms of jobs, the immigrant French are really looking at a hopeless future.
I know young people with family connections and 'old' families who have been to the best schools who go to incredibly difficult programs to work in a bank much less if someone comes from an immigrant family and has to claw their way up to the top.
Though many of their parents are hard working people who appreciate the fact that back home, things would be different for their children, they cannot fight the negative influences on their children. These are problems experienced by any immigrant peoples anywhere.

Another thing I know aggravates this problem. In France as elsewhere in the EU, you have benefits to help you live while getting on your feet, which is a great thing. So, if you're receiving these subsistence benefits and living in subsidized housing, it's very hard with the cost of living, and lower salaries, to ever get out of that rut ever.
We have this problem elsewhere, but, in the USA for example, it would be very hard to subsist on public benefits and in fact, when you come as an immigrant, you must swear that you won't live on public benefits.
So if you immigrate to the USA, you accept the premise that you either work, or you won't be able to make it. France on the other hand, I know that it's seen as a refuge.
In my own family, some of the members immigrated to France and some of them came to America, where my relative married the one member of the family. The French families have done well for themselves, but, worked extremely hard to get there.

If you do see a reference to 'beur' by the way, it's what is called 'verlan' or reverse slang for the word 'arabe'.
The Northern Africans now use this for themselves as a designation but I've heard it confused in the media. The use of 'arabe' was not terribly accurate and in fact used in a derogatory way, but the slang term became accepted and in fact, they use the feminine form.
Northern Africans are not exactly an easy group to lump into one category as in Algeria you have Berbere or Kabyle (Zinedine Zidan the famous football player is of this origin) and others. There have been recent massacres in Algeria of secular peoples, including the Kabyle.

I've been reading the reports of the three youth who fled and the one survivor is calling for peace, yet, the reports today say that they were being pursued. This was the event that provoked the incidents.

As to car burning, it's unfortunate ( I had my car burned there but after a theft or at least there wasn't enough left of my vehicle to determine if there was any graffiti on the car!) that they are attacking their own neighbors. The youth who are being incited to violence because they feel hopeless about their situation (in fact the one boy allegedly said to his mate, if I get taken to the police for this stupid thing, he'll send me back to Tunisia) are burning any hope they might have had left and in fact, people who might not have made an 'amalgame' or assumed things about all immigrants and their children, may be pushed in that direction after these events.
They are going to feed the hatred.

The people who are not of recent immigrant origin and who live in the large public housing apts, are most of the time, people who believe in harmony. I don't think they would live there if they didn't. So they've essentially alienated these people.

This is a real tragedy.

If I can give any perspective as someone who lived and worked with people of all nationalities in France, when things work well, there aren't that many problems. Many many French don't really care where you come from, as long as you work like they do. Honestly, at my children's schools and at my workplace, there were people from all over the world, and the parent teacher conferences etc, were attended by people in veils, and West African native dress and the like. I'd say about half of my son's friends were Muslim as they told me about ramadam and how they practiced it in their own home. There isn't a great stigma attached to living in housing that's subsidized by the govt because in some areas, if it weren't, you could simply not afford to live. I think I'd have accepted it, if I'd given the application in about ten years earlier.
Many of these people opened their hearts and minds to me after the crisis of 911 and even after the war was declared on Iraq. Though things were awkward at best during those years, they remained friendly.

The veils: I may sound atypical in my words on this and I know it exacerbated the problem in France and in their reputation abroad, but, I feel there is a great deal of tolerance for religion in France. It's very bad manners to ask about someone's religion in fact. Everyone accepts the premise that it's a country with Catholic traditions but that there are traditions of other faiths in every city you visit, even Buddhist monasteries in the countryside with enormous statues!
So when the veils became an 'ostentatious sign of religion' and a bone of contention in some communities, school directors were forced to deal with these things on case to case basis. The inherent problem lies in the fact that not all Islamic communities wish to wear the veil, and it was being imposed on those who were not from that tradition.
As some of the Muslim parents told me, in their own countries, many of them would not do this, but in France, they insisted on it. However, if your daughter does not wear the veil to school, but the surrounding community censures her and treats her as an immodest woman and even perpetrates violence on her, and in some families, the girl may have no recourse, this is a serious problem.
So, the govt took the radical controversial step of forbidding all ostentatious religous symbols, supposedly crosses, yarmulkas, etc. The justification was so that each school would no longer have to spend inordinate amounts of time on the problem and settling it whenever there were lawsuits or complaints.

It is unfortunate, as the French tend to tolerate other religious practices, and they in fact, are sensitive to observation of Ramadam for Muslim students in their school schedules for example.

This whole incident of burning and rioting however, is going to make a lot of wounds that will be very hard to heal in the communities they hit the hardest.

I found the following quote to be an interesting read. Blame the parents of the kids.

Quote:

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CLICHY-SOUS-BOIS, Paris - Night after night of rioting across France in which children as young as 10 have hurled firebombs and torched cars has prompted many people to ask: Where were the parents?

The rampaging in the impoverished, mainly immigrant neighborhoods underscores not only tensions in French society but also troubles in the homes where many of the rioters have grown up.

Many parents are struggling to make ends meet, leaving them little time for their children. They often can hardly communicate with their sons and daughters: Many parents are not French citizens and never learn to speak French, while their children don't learn the language of their ancestors.

Some parents even blame the recent riots on a French law that prohibits them from hitting their kids, which they say renders them powerless to assert control.

The government wants parents to be more responsible. But aid groups wonder if parents even know what their children are up to.

Fatna, an Algerian immigrant who agreed to speak on condition her last name not be used, insists on the innocence of her 21-year-old son, who was sentenced to two months in jail for a role in the riots.

Most of the people interviewed would only allow their first names to be used, and even then only reluctantly. They appeared worried about drawing the attention of their neighbors.

"Life is very difficult here," Fatna said in Arabic. She, like her husband, is illiterate and doesn't speak French despite having lived here for more than 25 years.

Fatna said her son, Khaled, was at home when the first riots broke out in their home town, Clichy-Sous-Bois, on Oct. 27. But at 10 p.m. the next day he went to the local teahouse as he did every night during the Muslim fasting month of Ramadan.

She didn't think much of it when he failed to return home, because it wasn't unusual. Sometimes, she said, he stayed with his sister.

Instead, Khalad had been arrested with other youths for participating in the riots. She pleaded with the magistrate that her son was innocent. "They said that's what all parents say," said Fatna. Still, she is convinced her son was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Khaled, who dropped out of school after failing his high school exams, is unemployed. He worked for eight months and then stopped, but his mother said she didn't know what kind of job he had.

"I don't read, I don't write," she said. "I don't know anything.

"They don't give work to the young. The young are not treated well by the police," said Fatna, who has never worked outside the home.

Parents complain their children don't listen to them, often lie and sometimes threaten to report the parents to police for abusing them if they can't have their way.

Many children express frustration at having to comply with values they don't share.

"France is a democratic country. It gives rights to women and children," said Abderrahman Bouhout, director of the Bilal Mosque in Clichy-Sous-Bois. "Now parents cannot do anything — if they hit their 12-year-old, police will come to their door. There's a hot line the kids can call to report parental abuse."

---

The parents seem to be able to keep up with current worldwide trends that encourage people to blame the government when they don`t raise their children properly, pretty amazing for some of them though especially when they don`t even speak the language of the country they reside in.

The quote is from here.

Quote:

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"France is a democratic country. It gives rights to women and children,"

---

Rights for woman and children? Imagine that!

But the rioters are not yelling "Give Us Jobs" or "Equal Opportunity" or "We are French too"; they are yelling "Allah Akbar" and burning cars that do not have Muslim emblems on them.

Interesting.

The violence is being stoked up by a minority of people, and given an 'either you're with us or against us' slant and, as you've seen, a religious slant.

Because as many others have said here and elsewhere, there is a large disenfranchised group without much hope of truly belonging to the society in which they are growing up and about which they are taught in school, nor do they even belong to the societies of their parents or ancestors anymore, it's ripe for the plucking for agitators. The sparks became flames.


I'd wager that very few people truly advocate violence in their own communities or elsewhere, and fewer still in the name of 'religion' but, because of the tinderbox in which they live, the sparks are hard to extinguish.

Did many feel as though the police had pursued the kids more closely because of their ethnic group, probably contributing to their deaths? Probably.
People of color anywhere know this is a reality. They know that just surrendering to the police may not be a valid option for them.
This is above and beyond whether they were guilty of anything or not, but how they assume they'll be treated.

I do not justify anything by this, but I try to understand the context in which a tragedy like this could occur and create wounds that will be hard to heal.

I've also heard that even people who are politically moderate reproach some govt officials for lumping immigrant communities together in speeches because it's stoking the flames.

As the saying goes here: "When it rains in Paris, it drips
in Brussels". Up till now here in Belgium we have caught only a slight bit of the spill-over of the riots in France. On a much smaller scale - at least for the time being. "Experts" claim that Belgium may be less vulnerable to this type of unrest because here ethnic minorities don't live in so-called "bidonvilles", and are believed to be less isolated from the rest of society. Nonetheless there are similar situations here too. Many "Belgians of North-African origin" are quite right in feeling that they have not been "accepted" by the rest of the Belgians. And an unacccepted minority is always a potential danger.
As to the link with religion, it does not really convince me.These "rioteers" are not the same people as those supporting the fundamentalist cause. Their rallying-cries are more tribal than religious.
A proof how these protests are inspired by social problems rather than by religion might be the fact that the strong local Turkish minority,though belonging to same religious group as the North-Africans, is hardly involved in this. Turks have managed to reach a certain type of integration, are much better accepted than some other ethnic groups, and can be said to have prospered.
Personally I think the problem of these rioteers is closer to the anger of certain black minorities in poverty-stricken areas of the U.S.A., Britain etc. than to the rise of fundamentalism.
Nonetheless in times of revolt you never know what is going to happen the next day. Violence can always be manipulated by troublemakers of another allegiance. So most people here believe in the wait-and-see principle.

Why, I wonder, are some of those who have posted here apparently so keen to see the present riots in France as motivated by religious fanaticism? I find this aspect bizarre - but also intriguing.

Obviously, I'm not in France and I have to rely on the news media. However, I do also have my reasoning abilities, such as they are, and my common sense, too. Do people honestly think that if the riots in France were motivated by demented religious fanaticism the main targets would be motor vehicles (of all things)?

Please have a look at the very first post in this thread.

Quote:

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Simply saying there is no religious motivation because to say otherwise is unfair and politically incorrect will provide no answers.

---

Why the sudden reference to 'politically incorrect'? Why try to 'profile' posters? Why the assumption that I'm _dogmatically_ ruling out some kinds of motivation? Quite simply, what's going on here?

The OP simply noted that the rioters were Muslim, which they largely are. There was no mention of a religious motivation.

Quote:

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Why the sudden reference to 'politically incorrect'? Why try to 'profile' posters? Why the assumption that I'm _dogmatically_ ruling out some kinds of motivation?

---

Early in the thread a poster said that to suggest a religious motive was unfair. I'm asking why is it unfair? You stated, in reference to a religious motivation, that you "find this aspect bizarre - but also intriguing". Why is it bizarre? It seems to me to be a pc position. You are answering a question with a question. I am raising possibilities that others seem to want to sweep under the rug. Quite possibly, I am mistaken.

Like (presumably) all other posters here, I have to depend almost entirely on the media for information on current affairs abroad. Here in the UK the press, right across the political spectrum (as far as I can tell) and the BBC, believe that the key causes behind the riots are intense social and economic dissatisfaction on the part of the minorities in France from North Africa. There has been absolutely no suggestion in the British media of a specifically religious motive for the riots.

This thread is, in fact, the very first place where I've encountered this suggestion ... I note that Flem-ish, who also lives fairly close to France, also discounts the notion.

Are we to assume that the British and Belgian media are gripped by political correctness while those further away are not?

Here's a link to the BBC website. It's a timeline, but there are links to other BBC articles:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4413964.stm

Well, Peter Hitchens wrote a page about it in today's Daily Mail (or yesterday's mail on Sunday, it may have covered both days) where his theory is 'why do they riot in Paris?' 'Because it's fun'.

There must be an element of this, possibly the major element, as apart from the obvious physical danger they put themselves in, lack of excitement is a definite element for many young people causing trouble, especially in more deprived areas, and I have heard youths interviewed here who said they vandalise and steal as there's nothing else to do. When I was a youth worker there was a direct correlation between areas without a decent youth club and young criminals. As the boxers Frank Bruno and Chris Eubank, who were heavily into crime/criminal gangs before becoming boxers and said it would have been their lives if they hadn't had a positive route to take. This must apply en masse in the dreadful areas South of Paris where I stayed for a few days in the 70s and was comparable to Eastern Europe (from what I've seen in the media).

It's certainly not comparable with terrorist attacks, more like the riots we've had on and off in the UK but on a larger scale, and anyone who wants a pretty good comparison/analysis can listen to Sunday's excellent programme on political Islam which gives a full history, and opinions straight from the people involved rather than reporters.
Analysis programme Hopefully it'll be available to hear again, though this is usually only for a week.

When I read Ing's post, I thought the wording "religious agenda" was the key thing. It might not be unfair, exactly, to suggest there is some religious motivation, but suggesting a religious agenda might be much more unfair. The one implies that religion could be one of many contributing factors, or maybe not. The other implies that these people organized themselves into a violent action with specific intent based on religious teachings. Two very different htings. I personally doubt very seriously that the latter is true, even if Al Queda had anything to do with it. Judging by the chaos, it seems like that were there any intentional prodding from an organized religious group, it would be in the manner of whisperings to stoke the flames, rather than an organized effort, and that again illustrates the main difference between religious motivation and religious agenda.

As Sue points out, though in different words, when the French decide to riot they have a knack of doing so in style, with gusto, relish and élan, and with plenty of extra seasoning, too!

It seems that many of those Frenchmen and Frenchwomen of African descent have, possibly without knowing it, in this respect become '150% French' - with the usual compulsory 10% service charge plus an extra 40% thrown in for bad measure.

I don't like the riots, I don't condone them, and I'm aware that they are making the lives of many people in those already blighted neighbourhoods very difficult. But to see them as an intifada or whatever is precisely the kind of melodrama that the Murdoch press thrives on in its attempts to entertain (but not enlighten) readers with a good ole frisson. It needs taking with several heaped tablespoons of salt.

I did a search on the BBC website for French fishermen and came up with these on the first page!

Fishermen in mid-Channel protest
Protesting French fishermen blockade one of the busiest shipping lanes in the world.
» 88% relevance | 21/12/2004 | similar stories

French port blockade comes to end
A protest by French fishermen which blocked the port of Calais leaving ferry passengers stranded comes to an end.
» 86% relevance | 02/12/2004 | similar stories

Fuel protests bring ferry chaos
A blockade of channel ports by French fishermen angry at fuel price rises has ended - but more action may follow..
» 85% relevance | 01/10/2004 | similar stories

Then the next page...

Port blockade hits passengers
Thousands of passengers have been stranded by disruption due to a blockade of the port of Calais by fishermen.
» 87% relevance | 10/12/2003 | similar stories

Then...

French blockade threatens ferries
Industrial action by French fishermen will disrupt ferries headed for Calais on Wednesday, operators say.
» 88% relevance | 09/12/2003 | similar stories

Don't ask me how these got in under fishermen...

British make own blockade
British holidaymakers trapped in a blockade of the Channel Tunnel by French farmers set up their own roadblock in protest.
» 82% relevance | 07/09/2000 | similar stories

New strike, new losses for UK firms
French protestors may profit from blockading roads and ports, but British businesses lose out.
» 86% relevance | 07/09/2000 | similar stories

And there are more...

French fuel deal rejected
France's fuel blockade is set to continue as the biggest French freight union rejects a government offer to cut fuel taxes.
» 83% relevance | 06/09/2000 | similar stories

Deal could end French fuel row
French truck drivers could call off their two-day fuel blockade after the government offers to cut taxes.
» 83% relevance | 06/09/2000 | similar stories

Analysis: France's disruptive protests
France actually loses fewer working days through strike action than most European countries, but French protests tends to be more violent and disruptive than elsewhere.
» 83% relevance | 05/09/2000 | similar stories

French fuel blockade continues
Late-night negotiations fail to resolve the French fuel dispute, but talks are to continue as motorist panic and join long queues for petrol.
» 83% relevance | 05/09/2000 | similar stories

UK 'protest' at French blockades
Foreign Secretary Robin Cook will register British annoyance over the blockade of Channel ports by French fishermen when he meets his EU counterparts on Saturday.
» 88% relevance | 02/09/2000 | similar stories

French strikes: C'est la vie
Strikes are part of the fabric of life in France, where there is a traditional tolerance of disruptive protests - much to the amazement of UK observers.
» 87% relevance | 01/09/2000 | similar stories

UK to tackle French blockades
Ferry companies start clearing the backlog after the French fishermen's Channel ports blockade, as the UK prepares to raise the issue with the EU.
» 89% relevance | 01/09/2000 | similar stories

French protest in pictures
The French fishermen's protests against high fuel prices causes chaos on both sides of the Channel.
» 87% relevance | 31/08/2000 | similar stories

A blockade on UK profitability
The victory by French fishermen in their campaign for lower fuel prices comes at a cost of millions of pounds to UK firms
» 89% relevance | 31/08/2000 | similar stories

French call off blockade
French fishermen's leaders recommend an end to their blockade of cross-Channel routes after talks with their government.
» 92% relevance | 31/08/2000 | similar stories

Analysis: What do the strikers want?
The French fishermen are not deliberately targeting British tourists, but just dramatising strike demands in a traditional French way
» 93% relevance | 31/08/2000 | similar stories

More disruption as French protests spread
French demonstrators protesting against the rising cost of fuel have blockaded the entrance to the shuttle service of the Channel Tunnel, near the town of Calais.
» 83% relevance | 31/08/2000 | similar stories

I could go on and on -- and those were just with searching for fishermen!

I rest my case.

Traffic on the move as French protests end
Holidaymakers begin arriving home after French fishermen protesting about rising fuel prices call off their two-day blockades of ports.
» 91% relevance | 31/08/2000 | similar stories

French blockade lifted
The French fishermen lift their blockade of cross-Channel routes after unions come to a compensation deal with the government.
» 93% relevance | 31/08/2000 | similar stories

Demonstrating la différence
When French workers seem eager to stage dramatic protests and blockades, why do the British seem more reticent?
» 86% relevance | 31/08/2000 | similar stories

Do read the following web page, it gives a good insight into he police attitude, and indeed of the situation in general towards protests. It is quite long but informative.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/30074.stm

You do make a good point, that the French have strikes and demonstrations for many reasons that seem arcane to us. I lived there for about eleven years total and it was constant. It was a bit like hay fever.

Why do they feel they must do this? Because they cannot seem to get attention any other way.
I know that the schools were on and off on strike for almost two months when we last lived there. It was crippling the country and as private businesses complained, the public sector protests for perhaps valid reasons, but makes the rest of us suffer in the process.
If strikes don't work they do demonstrate rather a lot.

The other news that hasn't been mentioned is rather interesting as it's coming from Marseille where an enormous Northern African and other African population resides. There's been a transport strike crippling the city.
I had wondered if there were reports of violence there, because, there are some neighborhoods that are entirely North African. Nothing major, but, the transport strike is still on.

I often wondered if it wasn't inherent when you live in a society where it's very hard to get change without moving.

Another report here on the radio (NPR or National Public
Radio) was that the police force often came from smaller towns and there were very very few people of color on the force as you'd find in most any Western country now, therefore the people in the neighborhoods did feel conflicts.

I've been doing a lot of this type of studying for my degree, and I can tell you that when you belong to a race that's perceived as "part of the problem", or even appear to belong to that race, you do experience a different attitude from the law authorities. It isn't something that we can experience unless we are the minority for a while.
My Mexican American professor said it's like this, he can have his diplomas in a wheelbarrow, and even the doctorate, he may be a distinguished scholar, but he'll be picked out of a crowd for his appearance, or guards in a bank may react differently to him, or people may assume he's a recent immigrant and speak slowly to him, just because of his appearance.

So, I do agree that the French tend to have 'manifestations' for just about anything. Perhaps they took over the religious processions of the past.
This is more than your ordinary protest however.

Quote:

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When I read Ing's post, I thought the wording "religious agenda" was the key thing. It might not be unfair, exactly, to suggest there is some religious motivation, but suggesting a religious agenda might be much more unfair. The one implies that religion could be one of many contributing factors, or maybe not. The other implies that these people organized themselves into a violent action with specific intent based on religious teachings. Two very different htings. I personally doubt very seriously that the latter is true,

---

So do I. I'm inclined to agree with satguru - most of the rioters were involved because it seemed like the thing to do. It was exciting and a way to express frustration. Yelling "Allahu Akhbar" was likely an attempt to justify their actions in their own minds and to other Muslims, and maybe, just maybe to instill some "second thoughts" in the minds of French authorities. However, I think it is prudent to monitor and consider the undercurrent, no matter how deep, of Islamofacism and its influence present and future on this segment of the French immigrant population. Remember London.

Here's a good article on why riots haven't really erupted in Marseille:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10045042/

"We have our troubles, but I can go to the center of the city without thinking I am entering enemy territory," said Abida Hecini, a mother of six. "We belong to Marseille and Marseille belongs to us."

"Unlike municipal leaders elsewhere, recent mayors of Marseille have given official recognition to communal diversity, rather than trying to fit everyone into one box of Frenchness. A program called Marseille Hope, begun in the late 1980s, periodically organizes consultations among religious leaders -- Catholic, Orthodox Christian, Muslim, Jewish and Buddhist -- on community problems."

In a recent television debate in which a top policeman, a top religious muslim leader, a muslim member of a social-democrat party and Dyab Abu Jahjah the founder of the Arab-European League took part, Abu Jahjah explicitly declared that it did not matter to him whether
his fellow Arabs in Europe were "good" or "bad" Muslims.
What mattered to him he said was that they were treated as equals.
At the same time he stressed that "Arab" action had to take place within the law.
This may seem reassuring, but it will not reassure everybody.
Because it also implies that if one day he and his Arab brothers are strong enough to play a major role in European politics, they feel they have a right to get their points of view pushed through just the same way as any other political party may try to do so.
At a given moment he expressed the view that the Arabs are now so numerous in certain European countries that Arab should become an official language in those countries.
Muslim religious festivals should be recognised just as well as christian religious festivals, and Muslim schoolchildren should be allowed to have days off at the time of e.g. the Sugar Feast just as christian children are allowed to have their Christmas holidays.Simply because the growing number of muslims among the population makes such claims reasonable.
Though not a religious fundamentalist, he sees the rights of
Arabs as including "respect for their religion".
Within this sort of reasoning it is obvious that no strict line can be drawn between "religious claims" and "civil rights claims".
His background is very confusing: he is an ex-member of Hezbollah and an ex-member of a left-leaning trade union.
He is anti-Israel and not in favour of equality between men and women, because it is not an Arab tradition.
He does not approve of 9/11, but says he can "understand it".
So all in all the line is indeed hard to draw. Some people will feel that what happens now is a kind of beginning "European Intifada",even though the participants are not necessarily sympathizers of Al Quaeda.
The fear of "Islamofascism" will most probably play in
favour of parties such as the Front National; the Flemish Blok and others who are happy about the escalation.
Fascism begetting counter-fascism.
Sarkozy a second generation Hungarian immigrant and hard-line rightist politician may strengthen his position as a candidate for the French presidency. And the final effect may be a Europe that is as internally divided as the USA seems to have become after 9/11.
To what extent religious motivations, Al Quaeda sympathies etc. are involved in all these troubles is hard to define, but it is fairly certain that further polarisation will be the outcome.
So the answer to the question:" What is up with the French?"
might simply be: they are just like the rest of us in the grip of the post-Cold War Chaos. The "New World Order" has definitely failed. Islam and poverty are part of the "amalgame" that everybody should try to "avoid" to make , but which is nonetheless being made in the minds of the majority of the people. The "amalgame" becomes real because it is real in the perception of the scared masses. And the media add to the "amalgame" by creating myths such as when they started describing Abu Jahjah as the European Malcolm X. The more the "amalgame" is made, the more dangerous the situation will become.