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#285964 - Sun Nov 20 2005 05:03 PM The Muslims Are Coming!
damnsuicidalroos Offline
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Registered: Mon Feb 10 2003
Posts: 2167
Loc: Sydney
NSW Australia
Two friends of my wife from Pristina are coming to stay at our house for a week. They are muslims and as I haven`t spent any time with muslims I would like to know if there are any do`s and don`ts I should know about.
As they are going to be guests in our house I would not like to offend them [no really]. Has anyone any knowledge about the everyday life of practising muslims that I should be aware of? Both are females btw.
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#285965 - Sun Nov 20 2005 07:32 PM Re: The Muslims Are Coming!
sue943 Offline
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Knowing nothing I would tend to ask them about their dietary requirements before they come, ask if there are any foods they would and wouldn't want.
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#285966 - Sun Nov 20 2005 07:48 PM Re: The Muslims Are Coming!
DiaDuit73 Offline
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Registered: Wed Dec 10 2003
Posts: 126
Loc: Meath Ireland
My friend from college is a muslim, I didn't really feel comfortable asking her what she does and doesn't like so this is what I picked up in the last 8 weeks since starting college: I know she doesn't eat meat that comes from a pig - pork.

And there's something about chicken - they have to pray for it first then cook it themselves and eat it, she doesn't like anyone saying anything bad about the koran (that's understandable, like a bible), If they are praying in your house never walk in front of them. Don't eat with your left hand or shake hands with them with that hand it offends them (I don't know why)

remember some muslims have different beliefs than others. so my friend's dislikes might not be the same as your wife's friends. most important thing I learned - never bring up politics in a conversation, I got my head bit off for it.

this probably doesn't help much but it's all I know, but good luck with having them over.

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#285967 - Sun Nov 20 2005 07:57 PM Re: The Muslims Are Coming!
agony Online   content

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If they are friends of your wife, she will probably know anything very serious. It would be hospitable to take dietary restrictions into account.
If they are at all reasonable people (and, being friends of your wife, of course they are) they will let you know anything that really matters to them that you wouldn't be expected to know.

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#285968 - Sun Nov 20 2005 08:20 PM Re: The Muslims Are Coming!
wajo Offline
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Registered: Mon Nov 11 2002
Posts: 271
Loc: Tasmania Australia          
Quote:

Don't eat with your left hand or shake hands with them with that hand it offends them (I don't know why)





In many places the left hand is only used for...uhm... personal hygiene.

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#285969 - Sun Nov 20 2005 08:41 PM Re: The Muslims Are Coming!
MotherGoose Offline
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Registered: Mon Apr 22 2002
Posts: 5007
Loc: Western Australia
Some other things which are considered rude include the following:

1. Pointing with the fingers (if you must point, use your thumb).

2. When sitting and chatting with your visitors, don't sit in such a way as to expose the soles of your feet to them. Keep your feet on the ground. (Not sure if this one is universal but it did apply to one Muslim country I visited).

Also, most practising Muslims don't drink alcohol.

That's all I can think of for now. I'll post again if I remember any more.
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#285970 - Sun Nov 20 2005 10:10 PM Re: The Muslims Are Coming!
picqero Offline
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I lived for several years in a Muslim country, and often ate out or had Muslim friends round. IMHO if they are guests in your house, they should fit in with you rather than you with them.
The 'soles of your feet' insult, mentioned by Mothergoose is a real insult, and should be avoided. Though not a Muslim, I get uncomfortable with this and have to move if it happens to me. I've never come across the 'pointing finger' insult, and wouldn't hesitate to do it, though not at them. Nor would I worry about drinking alcohol in moderation, such as a glass or two of wine with you meal in front of them. Don't offer it to them of course, and if you feel uncomfortable drinking it, then avoid it.. Alcohol is readilly available in many Muslim countries, and practicing Muslims don't drink it, but usually aren't greatly offended by non-Muslims doing so.
Avoid pork and other 'unclean' foods such as shellfish, but I've not come across the 'praying for chicken and need to cook it themselves' practice. In Muslim countries all animals and birds would be killed 'halal', ie permissable style, but the many Muslims I've met in the UK haven't worried about eating non halal meat in restaurants, etc.
The 'don't eat with your left hand' practice is quite common, but doesn't mean that you can't eat with a fork in your left hand, or break a breadroll in half using both hands. It applies to the handling of food from a common bowl or dish, and is really meant for situations where all the food is served in a central container and eaten barehanded rather than with utensils.
As to conversation, it's up to you, but I'd be quite interested in getting their opinion on important events such as Iraq, terrorism, etc, but as you would with any guest try to avoid arguments. I certainly wouldn't avoid watching the news on TV, nor of commenting on it or asking their opinion.
Take the opportunity to learn some of the common Muslim greetings such as 'salam aleekum' (peace be upon you), to which the response is 'allekum salam'. Also if you're interested, ask about their faith, though not in an argumentative manner - Christians, Muslims and Jews are all 'People of the Book', and share many aspects and characters of their religions.
In short 'treat them like normal people'!


Edited by aramis (Sun Nov 20 2005 10:18 PM)

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#285971 - Mon Nov 21 2005 01:27 AM Re: The Muslims Are Coming!
MotherGoose Offline
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Registered: Mon Apr 22 2002
Posts: 5007
Loc: Western Australia
When I posted before, I was at work. Now I am home and I have consulted the information book we were given when we visited a muslim country.

In addition to the things mentioned above, it is not customary to shake hands with the opposite sex. The restriction on using the left hand also applies to passing gifts to people as well as handling food. Do not handle their Koran.

According to our guide book, the following things are forbidden to Muslims: casual touching, touching a dog on its wet nose or when you or the animal is wet, smacking the fist of your right hand into your left palm (apparently this is a particularly offensive gesture).
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#285972 - Mon Nov 21 2005 04:35 AM Re: The Muslims Are Coming!
sue943 Offline
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Registered: Sun Dec 19 1999
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Quote:

In short 'treat them like normal people'!




Well they are normal people.

Oh and while we are at it Roos, don't wander around the house naked!
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#285973 - Mon Nov 21 2005 06:02 AM Re: The Muslims Are Coming!
ing Offline
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Registered: Wed Mar 30 2005
Posts: 1636
Loc: Canberra ACT Australia  
Quote:

Oh and while we are at it Roos, don't wander around the house naked!




Especially not while pointing!

Not shaking hands with the opposite sex isn't international. At least the Indonesian Muslims I know don't have a problem with it. Where I have been caught out, though, is when a woman shakes my hand and then pulls me in as if she is going to kiss my cheek: don't kiss her cheek! It's more a sort of pressing together, but I'm pretty sure this is only between women.

And, as has been pointed out, Muslims are people too...if they are your wife's friends, Roos, I would take your lead from her.

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#285974 - Mon Nov 21 2005 07:47 AM Re: The Muslims Are Coming!
blurrystar1 Offline
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Registered: Fri Jul 11 2003
Posts: 546
Loc: Victoria Australia
Quote:

Do not handle their Koran.




This would only refer to the Arabic Quran. Before reading this, Muslims even wash up and treat it with respect.

Translations are fine to handle, though.


Edited by blurrystar1 (Mon Nov 21 2005 07:47 AM)
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#285975 - Mon Nov 21 2005 09:41 AM Re: The Muslims Are Coming!
ktstew Offline
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Registered: Tue Jan 18 2005
Posts: 8717
Loc: Arkansas USA
I hope things go smoothly for everybody during the visit, Roos. And if they are reasonable people, they will make a few allowances for your family's mistakes. It will be obvious how hard you are trying to make them feel at ease...this will compensate for an awful lot!
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#285976 - Mon Nov 21 2005 09:57 AM Re: The Muslims Are Coming!
lothruin Offline
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I'd give you advice, Roos, but the Muslims I know are mostly very easy-going and not particularly strict. I'm sure there are dietary restrictions they follow, but they've never made an issue out of it. (And they're not shy about alcohol.) And fortunately for me, they're about as crude as I am sometimes, so there's never been worry of saying or doing something offensive in front of them. But that's mostly the girls from Bosnia. The Arab Muslims I know are mostly very quiet men who would rather have us over for a meal they prepare than go out carousing. Once again, I'm sure there are dietary restrictions, but since they are making the meals there hasn't ever been a problem. I think that perhaps most of my Muslim friends are doing as the Romans do. They just don't make an issue of their religion as far as fitting into daily life.
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#285977 - Mon Nov 21 2005 02:51 PM Re: The Muslims Are Coming!
Flynn_17 Offline
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Registered: Tue May 17 2005
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Loc: Hull Yorkshire England UK     
All meat has to be Halal, so it's best if you can get some that you know is. But I suppose it's probably different if the Muslims are from a European country. The only Muslims I know are from Pakistan and Syria (all of whom are very strict), and Bangladesh (who are not strict at all, seriously. They act like they have no religion.)

Edited to add that if they're female, make all attempts at bodily contact, well, unmade. It's not something that's done with most. And it's always better if you don't start a question with "So, you Muslims..."


Edited by Flynn (Mon Nov 21 2005 02:53 PM)
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#285978 - Mon Nov 21 2005 04:38 PM Re: The Muslims Are Coming!
ladymacb29 Offline
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Quote:

and Bangladesh (who are not strict at all, seriously. They act like they have no religion




My former roommate was from Bangladesh - the only way you'd know was that she didn't eat pork and didn't really drink.
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#285979 - Mon Nov 21 2005 07:03 PM Re: The Muslims Are Coming!
damnsuicidalroos Offline
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Registered: Mon Feb 10 2003
Posts: 2167
Loc: Sydney
NSW Australia
Thanks to all that have posted helpful hints. Most of it seems to be commonsense, but I`ll try anyway.

Walking around naked? Lol my sense of modesty would probably be equal to a nuns.
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#285980 - Wed Nov 23 2005 04:29 AM Re: The Muslims Are Coming!
vendome Offline
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Loc: Body: PA USA Heart: Paris   
I agree with whoever said that these women are coming to you for a visit; part of the enjoyment of their trip should be their enjoyment of your culture.

Out of courtesy and respect, I would adhere to their major dietary requirement like no pork. I would make no ther concessions; if you have wine with dinner, then continue. They don't have to drink it.

I'd not take contortionist lessons so that the sole of my feet are not visible. True, this is not the most pleasant body part to have on view. Just don't complimnt them on their lovely alligator sandles--chancs are they're barefoot.

I don't know where their left hands have been or what they've been doing, but this should become Priority #1 during their visit. Personally I'd have the family's left arms put in slings to eliminate the chance of left hand contageon.

If they are not willing to enjoy aspects of your culture, they should stay at home.
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#285981 - Wed Nov 23 2005 08:30 AM Re: The Muslims Are Coming!
ing Offline
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Registered: Wed Mar 30 2005
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Loc: Canberra ACT Australia  
I don't think there's been any question of "these women" (has gender actually been specified?) not being willing to make concessions for the culture they are visiting.

While I applaud Roos for wanting to make sure he doesn't cause offense (and maybe actually learning something about another culture in the process ) I must say I've found this whole thread a little odd. Is it just because Muslims represent such an 'unknown' that all this advice is being offered, or would the same discussion be happening if the visitors were Jewish, or Mormon, or Lutheran, or Buddhist? Yes I've put in my own 2 cents worth, but what has really struck me is all the generalisations which have been offered, also the assumptions that Muslims (all Muslims) are similarly devout, and unworldly enough to not be able to discern an unwitting infringement from a deliberate insult.

I'm not trying to start another 'us vs them' thread, and I'm not suggesting there has been evidence of posters being in any way derogatory or prejudiced. I'm just sharing the observations I have made and saying that I find it genuinely interesting the way we have all reacted to this question. Perhaps it shows my own heathen underbelly, but I can't say I'd be particularly worried about offending Muslims, but I can't say I'd be particularly worried about offending anybody on the basis of religious beliefs, theirs or mine. Again, I don't usually set out to cause offence to anyone on any basis, but I also don't tend to pussyfoot around...

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#285982 - Wed Nov 23 2005 08:20 PM Re: The Muslims Are Coming!
MotherGoose Offline
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Registered: Mon Apr 22 2002
Posts: 5007
Loc: Western Australia
Yes, gender was specified in the first post.

Yes, I think Muslims are a bit of an "unknown" in Australia. It has only been in relatively recent years that we have had a significant rise in Muslim immigration and Muslim countries have not been a traditional holiday destination for Australians.

Asking about customs so as not to offend shows thoughtfulness on the part of the host. If my guests were coming from a culture I was not familiar with, e.g. Buddhism or Taoism, I'd be asking questions. The same goes for guests who might be vegans (I'd be checking for what they did and did not eat).

It doesn't necessarily mean I would totally change my habits or lifestyle, but I would make the effort to not do anything to cause offence or make them feel uncomfortable.

There are things that offend all of us and it is hard not to feel affronted when somebody commits an offence, even if we know it is unintentional, or if we know if it is not viewed as such by everybody. I am very offended when people spit in the streets even though I know that this is acceptable in other countries. As a visitor, I would greatly appreciate it if I knew my host was refraining from doing this in deference to my feelings.

I don't think anyone has assumed all Muslims are devout. In fact, in my post, I did specify 'practising' Muslims. However, you don't have to be devout for things to offend you. For years I was a non-practising Christian but it still really offended me when people blasphemed. I didn't mind them swearing. "S--t" didn't bother me. But preface that with "Holy" and it did. I have one friend who says that all the time but even though I have never told him that it offends me, someone else must have, because I have noticed he tries very hard not to do it in my presence - and I really appreciate the fact that he makes the effort. Even if your visitors are not practising Muslims, I am sure that feeding them ham would make probably make them less than comfortable.

Roos, I am sure your visitors will appreciate all your efforts. You are obviously a very thoughtful host.
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#285983 - Wed Nov 23 2005 11:17 PM Re: The Muslims Are Coming!
ing Offline
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Registered: Wed Mar 30 2005
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Quote:

Yes, gender was specified in the first post.




So it was, my mistake.

Like I said, MotherG, I wasn't having a go at anyone, more just thinking out loud. And I stress yet again that I applaud Roos for wanting to make his guests feel comfortable. I certainly don't advocate completely changing your routine for guests, and I equally wouldn't suggest you don't take account of those differences you know about.

But I guess my thinking has moved beyond Roos' specific situation to the more general. It just always seems such a shame to me that human nature leads us to see differences in others before we see similarities. I'm not excluding myself from this in any way. However, if it is indeed human nature to notice difference, it is up to the individual how where they go with their observations.

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#285984 - Sat Nov 26 2005 06:21 PM Re: The Muslims Are Coming!
damnsuicidalroos Offline
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Thanks Mothergoose, as guests they should be shown every consideration I feel.

Just as an aside and of some small interest as Vendrome stated
Quote:

If they are not willing to enjoy aspects of your culture, they should stay at home.



. We were invited to visit our guests house and stay for a few days before we had Natasha, unfortunetly the lady of the house told us that because of her husbands beliefs we would have to lie to him and tell him we were married [as we are now], I simply refused that request and stayed at home.
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#285985 - Sat Nov 26 2005 10:44 PM Re: The Muslims Are Coming!
lothruin Offline
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Registered: Wed Nov 12 2003
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Gee, wish I could have done the same, Roos, the last time someone told me that. Unfortunately, when it's your future mother-in-law, or at least when it's MY future mother-in-law, I didn't want to press the point to harshly. When I was pregnant with Katherine we went to visit my husband's mother and step-father for a week. I really like his parents but they are devout evangelical Christians and even though my husband and I had been together for two years and fully intended to be married, and even though I was already pregnant with their grandchild, since we weren't married, we weren't allowed to share a bed under their roof. It was torturous. I was only about three months along, and had enough trouble sleeping as it was, without having to deal with doing it alone. Oh the hormones. Seriously. I know I seem like a hard, uh, rear, head, whatever, sometimes, but I'm really a bit softy at heart, and I just didn't want to make rifts, so I acquiesced. It was not fun.
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#285986 - Sun Nov 27 2005 12:45 AM Re: The Muslims Are Coming!
damnsuicidalroos Offline
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Lol Loth, Lil wasn`t pregnant but we had been living together for a couple of years and I simply couldn`t see it as a problem if we shared the same bedroom, but I also wasn`t going to lie to my host about anything. If it`s your future in-laws I guess as a guest and future family member you simply have to toe the line sometimes. I wouldn`t have been welcome to stay in my in-laws house if we weren`t married but then I would have dug my heels in and stayed in a hotel with Lily if push came to shove. I like to get my way mostly, except when it`s my house and then guests must feel comfortable. I always have my computer room if things get annoying.
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#285987 - Sun Nov 27 2005 01:57 AM Re: The Muslims Are Coming!
ing Offline
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Registered: Wed Mar 30 2005
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Loc: Canberra ACT Australia  
Isn't the whole 'not under my roof' in relation to sleeping together interesting? A cousin of mine lived with her boyfriend and when they visited her grandparents one Christmas they shared a bed no worries. Then there was a scandal because they wanted to stay a bit longer and checked into a hotel. I thought the grandparents (my aunt and uncle) were hurt because the 'kids' were staying in town but not with them, but apparently it was an affront because they stayed together in a hotel when they weren't married! That was a really odd one, but then they are Lutheran!

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#285988 - Sun Nov 27 2005 02:56 AM Re: The Muslims Are Coming!
Copago Offline
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Years ago I wanted to go on holiday once with a friend, who was a month off eighteen, and we'd be staying at my cousins house who lived with her boyfriend of 11 years and two children. My friends parents wouldn't let her go and visit in a house of sin. So we lied, said they were married, and had a great holiday.

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