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It wasn't an age thing with her, apparently she'd always engaged her mouth before her brain

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Loved that quote 50ftqueenie. I have always taught my children to think before speaking, and count to 10 when angry before remarking.

As for today's older teens and young twenties, they have lived through us babyboomers overindulgences for working too much and lack of attention. According to many reports and my children's own beliefs, they are trying to emulate their grandparent's life; more family focused, less materalistic, and more willing to take our advice. My children are 20 thru 28 and I can see the difference in how they are parenting. Maybe there is some small hope?!

This is just a general comment, not aimed at any particular person or post.

Everyone has to learn to get along with their fellow human beings on this planet. No man is an island. Whether a person has ADHD, a personality disorder, Asperger's or whatever, they still have to learn to function in the world. Other people are unlikely to make allowances for "hidden" disabilities.

Every parent owes it to their child to teach them manners and effective communication, to the best of the child's ability. It might be difficult but you have to try. If you don't, you do the child and society a great disservice.

There are children who have legitimate medical/psychiatric disorders but they really are a minority. The majority of ill-mannered children are perfectly normal children with ignorant parents. And unfortunately they grow into ill-mannered adults and senior citizens.

I had a neighbour who had a child with ADHD. She expected the whole world to fit in with her child, and not her child to fit into the world. She constantly made excuses for everything he said and did and he learned to play it to his advantage. She didn't do him any favours as he developed into a most obnoxious human being. And his sister suffered because the mother favoured this child so much.

I have another friend who has a son the same age with ADHD. You'd never know it unless you were told. He is the loveliest child and well-mannered. He is training to be a pilot. His mother took the time and trouble to teach him manners and how to get along with others. She never excused his behaviour on the grounds of his ADHD.

When I was a high school teacher, I got so sick of parents coming to see me concerning their badly behaved children (who had earned detentions or other punishments), and explaining that "Johnny says it wasn't his fault, it was the kid next to him", and sticking to it even when I explained that I caught Johnny red-handed.

Or explaining that their child couldn't do the detention because it would inconvenience them - "Johnny can't do detention tomorrow because I've planned to go out". In other words, their social life is more important than ensuring their child grows up to learn that actions have consequences.

One of the reasons I am an ex-high school teacher is because the parents were more trouble than the kids.

When we were young, my siblings and I got into a load of trouble if we were bad in public. We got punishments such as no television or video games, no friends over, and the most hated of punishments, cleaning/doing chores. We learned quickly not to beg, scream, or talk rudely to others. Personally, I don't see what being rude gets a person anyway.

"So sorry to hear you no longer teach but I certaintly understand why."


Actually, I do still teach - but I teach adults not children.

Some of my adult students are obnoxious too, of course, but it is nowhere near as bad as high school because most of the people in the class are there because they want to learn and they've paid a lot of money for the course.

When I did teach high school, I taught in private schools. I found that the more affluent the school, the more obnoxious the parents and kids could be. The thing is that a teacher's authority in the classroom is very tenuous. When a parent undermines it on behalf of their own child, they also undermine it for all the other kids too.

I remember a particular incident when I was teaching in a boys' school. I had one child who was a real devil and very slick at never getting caught. One day, I caught him red-handed in the science lab using a hose to squirt the other students. He'd been warned before but had always claimed it wasn't him, even though I knew it was.

I gave him a pink slip - the pink slip is a notice of detention after school for the following day. The parents have to be given 24 hours notice.

The next day when I arrived at school, there was a group of boys waiting for me in the car park. As soon as I got out of my car, one of them said "Paul's got a note from his mother saying he doesn't have to do your detention. Is he going to get away with it?" The gauntlet was thrown. They eagerly awaited my response. Was Paul going to get away with it? (Sounds like a soap, doesn't it?)

I knew that if I didn't insist on the detention, I'd have no authority with those kids ever again. So I had to be hard-nosed about it. I announced to the class that Paul would be doing his detention and that I would make sure his mother understood why.

She took it to the principal and it ended up with a conference between the principal, myself, Paul and his parents. Once I met his mother, I could see where the problem was. I stood my ground against all of them - the principal was as weak as water. He was the type who assured the staff that he would always back them up, and never did.

It was really hard but I stood firm and got my way. I'd have stood no chance for the rest of the year if I hadn't. This was by no means an isolated incident.

I might add that, on the very first day of the school year, when I arrived at the school as a new teacher, a group of boys met me in the car park and one of them said "We made our last teacher leave. How long do you think you'll last?" I assured them I'd still be there at the end of the school year. I was, but it was a bloody hard year. That was my last year of teaching.

"Mother Goose-my 20 year old daughter just looked at the forums as I was reading and saw your picture. She thought it was me. We look a lot alike!"


You poor thing! (Just kidding!) You'll have to post an avatar so we can see.

I'm will try! I have a Mac and they aren't always the most cooperative with PC based sites.

Rest assured, I am older, my dishwater blonde/brown hair turned pitch black after chemo, (wasn't supposed to do anything but thin, which it didn't) and I am one of the few chemo patients that gained weight. A lot of weight. I highlighted and dyed my hair to blonde, so we don't look alike right now (heck, I don't even know what I really look like right now!)

I have to try to find an older picture but trust me, my resemblance of the old (younger) me to this picture of you is uncanny!

Also, just read your post on your pink slips. Unfortunately I had a few myself (great mom, naughty teen)

Good for you for standing your ground! My sister-in-law taught at an Indian reservation middle school. She gave up because the nuns would never back her up.

One day, 30 students threw their pencils at her because they were angry about having to do an assignment. And they threw roughly. She confiscated their pencils. They went to their next class, math, and wouldn't do the work because she had their pencil. Apparently each only had one. (riiiiight)

She was reprimanded and suspended a day for her behavior. She gave up and they lost a truly good teacher. She is now head of a post office-great money abd retirement but she still misses the kids.

I'll still stick with bedpans over parents!

Well you can't be ageist about being rude, either people are or they aren't. I live in a largish country town in a semi-rural to rural area in South East Queensland and by far the people are usually friendly, helpful etc. But you always get the odd one out . . . city folk usually . . . lol!

Have you ever heard of Asperger Syndrome? In its milder forms it manifests itself as the inability to read others and difficult social interaction. Usually the kids are really bright. The son of someone I know suffers from this. Every new phase of his life becomes a real challenge for the entire family as they try to help him find ways to adapt.

Sorry. I just read further and realized that you have!

I raised a child who had regular melt-downs, and I have been known to cart him out of stores by the scruff of his neck, thrashing and kicking and screaming his head off. I have also walked him home from school like this, when he was much younger, my arms and back aching the whole way. I'd be covered with bruises when I finally got him there.
I'd send him to his room and he would refuse to go so I would put him there. He wouldn't stay, so I put a lock on the door. I only ever had to use it once!
He is now 15 years old and six feet tall, and I am so glad that I established the ground rules then.
Every now and then he says he is going to defy me (go somewhere I said he couldn't go) and I admit that I can no longer stop him, but point out what his life is going to be like when he does return home. He's never gone through with it, and the threats are fewer and further between.
I now have friends and neighbours commenting on how polite he is, and how he's grown into a fine young man. This doesn't meant that he still doesn't argue, sometimes incessantly, with me, but gives me hope that he does know how to behave when out in public.
And when we took him to a restaurant, he was never allowed to leave his seat unless being taken to the washroom by an adult!

My own son was awfully rude to me when he was a child and teenager but people were always telling me that he was such a polite and helpful boy! If only they knew what I had to put up with at home.

"My own son was awfully rude to me when he was a child and teenager but people were always telling me that he was such a polite and helpful boy! If only they knew what I had to put up with at home."


Mine is 16 tomorrow and exactly the same. However, I firmly believe that if you've done your best to bring them up right, the odds are greatly in your favour that they will grow up to become fine young adults, (even if you could cheerfully strangle them in their teens ).

Or they could just start taking drugs and ruin their lives, you just can't tell what will happen with them.

I am thankful every day that both my boys (21 and 16) are well adjusted, non drug taking, hard working young men . . . 21 year old works with Computers, and 16 year old is an Apprentice . . . my 9 year old daughter has yet to survive teenagerhood . . . and for that matter, so have I (should be novel to say the least)! But, I always remember friends who had no children of their own always noting how well mannered my children were . . . if only they'd seen them at home . . . but, kids always behave better (purportedly) when they are out! I had some 'redneck' at LA (or was it JFK?) airport 'tut' very vocally at me rousing on my own daughter, I asked if he had children of his own (as we stood in a queue, after waiting at the airport for over 5 hours ) and he said yes he did . . . I queried if he disciplined his kids, yes he did, then I told him to butt out and let me discipline mine then (it was only verbal, and she was soooooo out of control when we were away . . . extenuating circumstances one might say)!

Happy Birthday to your son Mother Goose!

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  Have you ever heard of Asperger Syndrome?

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I have a question about Asbergers if I may. It seems here in the US that we have Autistic or nothing. My son-in-law's brother displays some strange behavior that I thought might be Aspergers and I would appreciate some feedback!

As a child, he loved repetitive motion, esp. rocking chairs and would spend hour after hour just pushing the same little car on the floor back and forth saying "vroom, vroom" louder and louder.

As an adolescent, he continued the rocking, and would not interact with his family. That was questionably a puberty thing. At the age of 17, he started with more bizaare behavior described below:

As an adult of 23, he rocks nonstop, hard. If not rocking, he shakes one leg so hard at the dining table that the glasses jump. He doesn't socialize well, but will talk to himself when he thinks people aren't listening. But his strangest behavior is that he will turn up the television and then runs for hours in between door posts or walls, in a straight line, smacking into them with his open hands. Like I said, he does this for hours, hitting walls and doorposts so hard that the house shakes.

The mother is oblivious to all of the behaviors, even his at a young age. The door ruuning and smacking was pointed out to her by my son-in-law, when his brother was 20, after years of listening to it and keeping him awake at night. His mother said that she didn't even notice.His mother is very emotionally closed; I describe her as a stepford mom. No emotions yet really bright-Masters in Creative writing.

His behavior sounds like Aspergers to me, but I can't find much literature on it. His mother also talks to herself, is socially inept. You can be talking to her and she will turn away and tune you out, even with her sons.

I would appreciate some help. It is my son-in-law that worries about it...my daughter and him are expecting a baby soon and are worried their child will have the same strange repetitive behaviors.

Thanks

Yep, I have to agree that there are some very rude older people who use their age to justify all sorts of appalling behaviour, behaviour which they would most likely be loudly critical of if it were perpetrated against them, esp. by someone younger.
This has happened to me a number of times in the last couple of weeks - I had an elderly man drive into a parking bay that I had been waiting for for 10 minutes, only to be told by him that it didn't have my name on it! Then on Saturday night at a Wrestling event where about 100 of us had been queuing for approx an hour this old couple casually wandered up the line and stood at the doors, knowing full well that no-one would jostle them out of the way due to their age; THEN my 11yo son & I were out shopping & decided to stop for a bite in the shopping centre food hall, tables were pretty scarce so when we saw one become free my son went over to claim a seat, the previous occupants had not cleared the table so he picked up their rubbish & took it to the bin (only a couple of feet away) while he was doing this two middle-aged men sat down, when he told them that he had cleared the table for us to use they looked at him, shrugged and returned to their conversation...
I just felt like screaming! How do we teach our young ones to respect others, esp. their elders when they observe this lack of respect on a regular basis?

In regard to undesirable behaviour in children, I think it is usually fairly easy to tell whether a child has some form of disability and simply is unable to control their behaviour or if they are wilfully rude and disobedient.
Of course even wilfully obnoxious children are not responible for their behaviour if their parents refuse to teach them right from wrong.
Having said that, there are always shades of grey in any situation.
I have an ex in-law who has a child with Kleinfelter's Syndrome - a genetic condition which only affects males - this Syndrome causes symptoms of varying degrees for it's sufferers, the most common being intellectual disabilities and "autistic tendencies".
This child is probably midway along the spectrum but is not helped, & in fact is certainly hindered by the fact that his mother continues to excuse any & all behaviour always blaming someone else, usually his younger sister, who suffers from her own issues due to continually being held accountable for her brother's violent, abusive behaviour: at the age of 13, she recently threatened to commit suicide at school.
She is a vulnerable child crying out for love & attention but I fear she only knows how to do this in inappropriate ways.
She is a "difficult" child, but one can understand her behaviour if it is put in the context of her family situation.

After reading through these (interesting, but often unsettling) posts/observations I think this all boils down to "entitlements", or am I wrong? The older folks often think they 'deserve' certain treatments because they've lived X amount of time and endured X amount of things. The youth often think they 'deserve' certain treatments because they are invincible, young (therefore allowed to make mistakes because of that) and all full of potential. Mothers think they 'deserve' certain treatments because it is their job to protect/defend their young at all costs (and it should be known to everyone just how hard it is to be a mother so the public should deal with that and leave it there). Funny thing is - those are all facts! They really are. Old people HAVE earned, through whatever they've been through, a healthy amount of respect based on their longevity/experiences alone. Young people DO deserve a break for the opposite reasons (they'll learn better [hopefully] and really have nowhere to go but "up"). Mothers (and fathers) ARE expected to lay themselves down, within reason, for their role(s) as protectors of their children. I doubt if anyone would offer a good blanket argument against any of these truths. However...none of that offers anyone, any age, anywhere the 'privelege' of being rude, selfish or entitled to special social treatment. In my mind it just doesn't, no matter how you shake it.
It's what I keep hearing in life, you know? People explaining away with any number of reasons (or pack of well thought-through excuses) why this person or that person or this group or that group deserves special consideration(s). I disagree, I guess. If you have to work so hard to rationalize your own or somebody else's behavior you're admitting that the behavior is just unacceptable the minute you start doing that. Age, gender, one head or two heads ~ it'd just be easier to act in a civilized fashion to begin with. Saves a lot of time explaining things later. I was always raised that, even as a child, you act up outside of the familiar domestic circle, you're on your own. No one would care if my breakfast was cold or if I stubbed my toe getting out of bed (and since they didn't know those "crises" were in place in my life they couldn't be expected to care about it). I was told that if I was rude, unsightly or otherwise peevish to an innocent stranger that I should readily expect to get my ears boxed. And, if I DID get my ears boxed, I was not to come home crying about it, expecting even a shred of sympathy.
Yes, I'm no longer a kid anymore but I still feel that way. Back to "entitlements" --- I own my own behavior the minute I display it. Really, at the end of the day, that's the ONLY truth I'm ultimately 'entitled' to know.

I think you have hit the nail on the head Gatsby. Also there is the 'I'm alright Jack and to heck with anyone else' attitudes.

bullyb1, I don't really know much about Asperger's myself. My son at one time was very sure that he had it and blamed me for being a rotten parent and not picking up on it, I had never even heard of it at the time. His accusations and demands for me to pay for him to be privately assessed were on the lead up to him becoming so psychotic that hospitalisation was necesary. He has since been diagnosed as being bipolar although I am not so sure that he doesn't also have other problems.

Gatsby, I agree with you; we are all responsible for ourselves & our behaviour, BUT where do you go when you aren't taught the rules of social interaction, when you have to fight for whatever attention you can get (good or bad), when you aren't made aware of the boundaries that exist within the social structure?
I had a pretty undesirable up-bringing; abused, neglected, left to my own devices to try and work out what the hell I should be doing to be a worthy member of society... I managed to work it out... I am, by nature (despite my early influences - perhaps because of??), a strong person; a survivor - I'm aware of how difficult it is to overcome these obstacles. Others just don't seem to be able to.
My personal view is that nature plays a larger part than popular opinion allows for.
There still remains a percentage that may not have the intellect, or the social skills, or the reasoning ability, OR the self respect/ confidence to trust in themselves to make the right choices.

Gatsby I agree with much of what you have written....but not that old people do deserve respect simply because they are old or that they may have more longevity/experiences than others. It`s certainly not a proven fact that a person has had more experiences than others simply because they are older. I know a number of people that have never been out of N.S.W and would suggest that their life experience is less than that of someone half their age that has traveled further afield. Many people are stuck in a groove that is so much easier to stay in than get out of that they have very little experience of life compared to the more adventurous. The longevity of people is I would suggest more a medical fact rather than a skill that old people possess, sure people might live longer if they live healthier lives but they are probably in the minority. Old people deserve respect because they have access to better medical services than others?

Sue I still reakon you should have let the tyres down on the blokes car that offended you, perhaps he might have been a little more polite in future. If people are rude to me I generally give it back to them in spades, mostly they back off and wake-up to themselves and if they don`t I also give them a couple of comments that gives them something to think about.

blurry: I don't know much about Asperger's, other than that it's an autistic-spectrum disorder, but reading through your post the first thing which sprang to my mind was Tourette's Syndrome. Tourette's is best known for the involuntary cursing but the vocal tics do not always manifest in this way. This chap seems to exhibit an uncontrollable urge to move repetitively, fidget, walk from door-to-door, slap the wall, AND talks inappropriately. Both these together suggest Tourette's to me. I will admit that Asperger's would be the other diagnosis closest matching what you describe.

I must emphasise that I am NOT a medical person, but had some problems with my daughter a few years ago. At one stage Tourette's was suggested, so I did a heap of research. Maybe I'm just drawing wrong conclusions as I have read up so much about it, but it could be worth a look.