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#386850 - Mon Sep 17 2007 03:15 AM Re: Madeleine McCann
50ftqueenie Offline
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Registered: Tue Mar 21 2006
Posts: 201
Loc: Hull Yorkshire UK
I'm not surprised that sedation of children is widespread. I used to go to a mother and toddler group when my daughter was very small. Sleepless nights was often a topic of discussion and many mums freely admitted that they gave calpol or similiar to their children EVERY night to get them to sleep and would give more than the recommended dose to get the desired result. Dangerous and stupid but they thought nothing of it.
I don't know what has happened to poor little Madeline but if anything good can come of this case by publicising this awful practise of drugging ones children to sleep it may stop other parents from resorting to it. There are far better ways of managing sleep problems that do require more effort and patience but are far safer.
This case will also serve as a warning to any parent that thinks it is acceptable to leave their children home alone.
It's a pity Madeline has had to pay a high price to highlight these bad parenting practises but it may just save other children's lives.
I hope the truth about what has happened to Madeline comes out soon so she can be found and laid to rest in peace. It's all any of us can hope for now.
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#386851 - Mon Sep 17 2007 04:05 AM Re: Madeleine McCann
chelseabelle Offline
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Registered: Thu Oct 07 1999
Posts: 10282
Loc: New York USA
I think one real benefit of discussing this case is to heighten public awareness of what constitutes legal child neglect and abuse. Another benefit would be to have people take a hard and realistic look at their own child care practices.

Unfortunately, in this case, I think child protective services agencies have missed an opportunity to inform the public by reiterating the laws which pertain in whatever jurisdiction they represent. What do the laws actually say about leaving very young children unattended for any length of time? Are there any situations in which young children can safely be left unattended? How far can a caretaker go from the immediate vicinity of a young child before it would be considered legal neglect or abandonment or endangerment?

No parent is perfect, and all parents have some lapses in judgment at times. But, at what point do those lapses in judgment actually violate the child protection laws? Obviously, it is generally only those instances in which a child is harmed or killed, as the result of an error in parental judgment, which come to anyone's attention and which raise the issue of criminal charges. But does that mean that everyone should simply ignore possibly neglectful behavior until a child is actually harmed? Wouldn't it be far better to demand higher standards of parental conduct from ourselves, our family, our friends, and our neighbors, in order to prevent harm from coming to our children? Is there any benefit from rationalizing or excusing lapses in parenting judgment because no past harm apparently resulted?

I think that public debate and discussion of these matters is both important and worthwhile. Parents have to be guided by both common sense and by a knowledge of the law.

Many parents, particularly many mothers, are stressed out and emotionally and physically exhausted from the demands of caring for their small children. They want, and need, an occasional break from these responsibilities. They need to enjoy some adult conversation, over a cup of coffee with a neighbor, or over dinner with some friends. They may need to run to a store to buy some milk. They may simply need to go for a walk by themselves. Can they ever safely leave their sleeping children, even for brief periods of time, to give themselves a break?

The risk of a child being abducted is very low. The risk of a child left alone being injured, or simply frightened, is much higher and much more likely. How close by does a parent or responsible adult need to be?

This case also raises questions about sedating young children.

Under what circumstances should sedation be given to children? If they are unusually anxious or frightened? If they are behaving in an unruly manner? To get them to sleep at an early or reasonable hour? Only under a pediatrician's advice and supervision? Never?

The main, and most immediate, outcry in this case occurred because these two parents left three small children, under the age of four, alone in a vacation apartment which was also apparently unlocked. They did this so they could dine nearby with friends. This was not the first night they had done this. They apparently did this every night of their vacation. Their friends also seemingly left their children alone in their apartments, although the ages of those children were not known. Babysitters were available, but the McCanns, at least, did not think it was safe to leave their children with a stranger. Were all of these people exercising proper parental judgment? Were all of them in violation of child protective laws? What standards of care should be exercised by vacationing parents who want a little time to themselves? Is it better to leave sleeping children alone in a hotel room or vacation apartment rather than with a strange babysitter?

I think this case forces people to look at some of the types of parenting behaviors they routinely accept in themselves, and their friends, which might be potentially harmful to their children. Rather than just vilifying the parents in this case, I think everyone should take a look at their own possible errors in parental judgment. They should look at what they do with their children in private as well as in public. They should demand that child protective agencies publicize and clarify the laws regarding child neglect and parental responsibility.

Whether this particular child was abducted, or possibly accidentally killed by a parent, or accidentally killed herself, is not clearly known at present. We do know she was left alone. How many of us, or our friends, might leave a child alone under similar circumstances? Are we wrong in doing this? Are we violating child protection laws in doing so?

These are important issues. They can lead to meaningful public discussion. They can educate and warn people. Most importantly, they can lead to the greater protection of children.
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#386852 - Mon Sep 17 2007 04:32 AM Re: Madeleine McCann
delboy22 Offline
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Registered: Tue Jun 19 2007
Posts: 1309
Loc: Dijon France via S Wales UK
An excellent post Chelseabelle, and I really don't think anyone can argue with the fact that this case has aroused public awareness of the need for responsible care of our children.
The point in question here though, is whether any of us have the LEGAL or moral right to judge the McCanns based on what is VERY fragmented evidence.
I am quite confident that as a result of this case, the British social services and associated authorities, will indeed look very closely at the current legislation regarding the care and safety of children.
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#386853 - Mon Sep 17 2007 04:45 AM Re: Madeleine McCann
supersal1 Offline
Mainstay

Registered: Sat Jul 17 2004
Posts: 727
Loc: Essex UK
You've raised an interesting point there CB.

I've had a quick look around the net. There is a lot about child protection, but in the context of police checks for people coming into contact with children, and that sort of thing.

My own understanding is that in the UK, if you leave your child alone under the age of 16, you can be charged if any harm comes to that child. Theoretically, that means if I leave my 11 year old (or indeed my 15 year old) alone in the house while I go to the shops, and they fall downstairs, I can be held liable.

Recently I let my 15 year old stay in the house overnight with a 15 year old friend, and no adult supervision. I wasn't keen on the idea, but she didn't want to go elsewhere. At 16, she'll be legally old enough to marry and start her own family.

There was a case years ago where a single mother left her two year old daughter each day while she went to work. No physical harm came to the child, but the mother was jailed. There have also been cases where the parents have gone on holiday and left young children in the charge of older ones (say 14, 15) and they've also fallen foul of the law. However, 14 and 15 year olds babysit, so where is the line drawn?

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#386854 - Mon Sep 17 2007 05:32 AM Re: Madeleine McCann
delboy22 Offline
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Registered: Tue Jun 19 2007
Posts: 1309
Loc: Dijon France via S Wales UK
Quote:

My own understanding is that in the UK, if you leave your child alone under the age of 16, you can be charged if any harm comes to that child. Theoretically, that means if I leave my 11 year old (or indeed my 15 year old) alone in the house while I go to the shops, and they fall downstairs, I can be held liable.




Under the current legislation - you are perfectly correct in your assumption Supersal.

If however that aspect of the law was rigorously enforced, you and no doubt HUNDREDS of otherwise responsible parents would find themselves in a courtroom!
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#386855 - Fri Sep 21 2007 08:09 AM Re: Madeleine McCann
Prettyrose Offline
Participant

Registered: Sun Sep 09 2007
Posts: 42




What I do not get, is how the Parents can hide a "third child" this long a time? Wouldn't any person have seen her or noticed where Madeline was.

Suspicion, does give room for Truth!


Edited by Rose4312 (Fri Sep 21 2007 08:11 AM)

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#386856 - Fri Sep 21 2007 03:01 PM Re: Madeleine McCann
supersal1 Offline
Mainstay

Registered: Sat Jul 17 2004
Posts: 727
Loc: Essex UK
Rose, it all depends which newspaper you read. One of the more sensational red tops over here reported at the weekend that there was suspicion that the parents had chartered a yacht and dropped the poor child's body overboard. I'm not sure how they're supposed to have managed that either.

The latest is that apparently there is not enough evidence to justify further formal questioning of the parents.

I hope I'm wrong but I suspect that the truth will never be found, and the McCanns will always be suspect in certain quarters.

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#386857 - Fri Sep 21 2007 07:32 PM Re: Madeleine McCann
lanfranco Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: Sun Aug 28 2005
Posts: 349
Loc: Chicago Illinois USA          
Rose, the claim isn't that the McCanns hid a live child but rather a dead one -- somewhat easier, perhaps, but still extremely difficult if you happen to be under the close scrutiny of the police and the media.

I'm afraid I agree with with supersal. This case will probably never be resolved. For years to come, it will be revisited annually by journalists, books will be written about it, and the McCann family will never overcome it.

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#386858 - Fri Sep 21 2007 11:07 PM Re: Madeleine McCann
mountaingoat Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: Fri Jun 22 2007
Posts: 390
Loc: Blue Mountains NSW Australia
I wish the public would educate themselves more about the grieving process. Some people fall apart while others are in shock for anything from months to years. We convicted the Dingo baby lady Lindy Chamberlain simply because the media decided she didn't grieve enough in public.

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#386859 - Fri Sep 21 2007 11:11 PM Re: Madeleine McCann
Copago Offline
Moderator

Registered: Tue May 15 2001
Posts: 14384
Loc: Australia
Same with Joanne Lees when her boyfriend went missing on a deserted higway in the NT. Trial by media.

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#386860 - Sat Sep 22 2007 03:01 AM Re: Madeleine McCann
iceqween Offline
Learning the ropes...

Registered: Sat Sep 22 2007
Posts: 1
Loc: Mountsorrel Leicestershire UK
I live in the same village as the McCanns and since their return to the UK we have had to endure reporters parking their 4X4's on the grass verges on the main road, so much so that we who choose to go for a walk now have to walk close a busy road. We have had reporters trying to take photo's from the gardens. I live on a small cul de sac and we have the satelite vans parked up in the street making visability when driving difficult. Not to mention the village green being over run with arc lights that are full in your face while trying to drive and the reporters and tv companies who had erected gazebo's to keep their cameras dry. What ever the family may or may not have done, surely they are entitled to some privacy and to be allowed to try and carry on with life as best they can.

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#386861 - Sat Sep 22 2007 04:11 AM Re: Madeleine McCann
sue943 Offline
Administrator

Registered: Sun Dec 19 1999
Posts: 38005
Loc: Jersey
Channel Islands    
iceqween, thank you for posting that and I couldn't agree with you more.

Life must be very difficult for everyone in the village, you have my sympathy.

The loss of a child, no matter what the circumstances, is unbelievably sad and my thoughts are with the McCanns and their friends and family. The media coverage and the tabloid headlines sicken me.
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#386862 - Sun Sep 23 2007 03:15 AM Re: Madeleine McCann
delboy22 Offline
Prolific

Registered: Tue Jun 19 2007
Posts: 1309
Loc: Dijon France via S Wales UK
Iceqween,
You have also my sympathy - it must be terrible for ordinary people trying to go about their normal lives, without some parasitic leech shoving a microphone up their nose or a camera in their face!

"Freedom of the Press" ?? yeh - WOTEVA !
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#386863 - Fri Jan 11 2008 04:58 AM Re: Madeleine McCann
greenkiwi Offline
Forum Adept

Registered: Fri Apr 20 2007
Posts: 122
Loc: Wellington New Zealand
I agree whole-heartedly with your sentements.Just exactly how is a parent supposed to react when their child goes missing? Stick their picture on a milk carton and leave it at that?! I shudder when I recall the pedophile(sp?) rings broken in europe where children were found to be alive and held captive
Innocent until proven guilty isn't guaranteed by every country's legal system;so those of us fortunate enough to have it embedded in our laws should value it...not try and weaken it by cruel and callous speculation.
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