What do you think were the most significant legacies of medieval Islam?

Mostly negative, I'm afraid. The former Ottoman territories (the Balkans, the Middle East, North Africa, even Turkey to a lesser extent) have never fully reaped the benefits of the Scientific and Industrial revolutions, and civil society in these countries has never developed as robustly as it did in Western Europe, leading to political instability and the nagging problem of autocracy.

Then again, you see the same thing in Latin America and the former Russian Empire/Soviet Union, so maybe its more a general hegemony thing than an Ottoman thing. Your milage may vary.

Oh, mercy! How about algebra, chemistry, chess, astronomy?

To say nothing of architecture. Think Spain and Moors.

That is the irony of the situation. In many if not most ways, the Muslim world was more advanced than Christendom into the 1600s. That being said, the great advances of this culture have largely been appropriated by the West. If one wants to study top-rank medicine, one does not go to Istanbul. If one wants to work in advanced mathematics, one does not typically go to Egypt. If one wants to work in cutting-edge astronomy, one does not go to Tirana.

Isn't that what a legacy is? What's left after they fade away?

I'm not trying to be curt here, just brief. I don't think we do justice to medieval Islamic scholarship, precisely because the West appropriated its discoveries without giving due credit. We exalt the Greeks perhaps above their due and ignore the Mohammedans. I think this is cultural bigotry.

I'm hoping we can engage in vigorous debate without getting our feathers ruffled. If I'm too vigorous, say so.

Peace and cheers!

Fair enough... the Islamic world kept the world of ancient Greece and Rome alive whilst us poor Western slobs wallowed in the dark ages. But we recovered, had the Rennaisance, the Enlightenment, Fascism, Communism Hippys, Punk Rock and all sorts of weird stuff.
In the West we invented powered flight, all Islam can do is Hi-jack a Western invention and fly it into a building full of innocents. Islam has been stagnant for the past 600 years.

I wouldn't have worded it that way, Looby, but basically, yeah. "Stagnant" is probably too generous, though; "regressive" seems more accurate.

Still, for all our technological wizardry, the energy to make it all go is held in Muslim hands. They aren't poor desert ignoramuses without a clue as to how to use that as a lever to manipulate the West. Who's cleverer--the puppet or the one who makes him dance?

However true what I just said may be, I don't elevate it to the level of "truth." I much prefer cooperation and appreciation over rivalry and strife. Competition and improvement could be the golden mean.

How did I fail to mention medicine?

Good points queproblema. Good to see more people know about how Islam is responsible for some of the most significant discoveries in history in ALL fields even though in American schools, a very Eurocentric/Christian view of the world is force-fed to our youth so that they go through school thinking the Greeks were the pinnacle and source of ancient intelligence. Godforbid it should be taught that the most influential Greek thinkers all studied in Egypt! Heck, Socrates was even executed for his 'foreign ideas'.

Looby: One thing you need to consider when labelling Muslim countries as 'regressive': In the Islamic culture, Western society is seen as materialistic, shallow, soulless, gluttonous, and overindulgent. Islam preaches simplicity and freedom from materialism.

That said, you have to consider that Muslims don't WANT to be dragged, kicking and screaming into what we view as a free society.

For example, Muslim countries have some of the lowest crime rates in the civilized world. FAR lower than the crime rates here in America. Using your logic, if America were so much more 'advanced', wouldn't America have the lower crime rate? You see where this can go? Parallels can be drawn to all facets of life such as health: Muslim countries are far less obese than America and have only a 1-2 year lower average life expectancy than America even though America has an FAR more advanced medical system.

While there are pros and cons to both Muslim society and non-Muslim societies, it needs to be taken into consideration that Muslim countries (which are predominantly Muslim as opposed to say, the USA which is a hodge-podge of religions), feel that simplicity in life and worship is the key to happiness; not the 'American' view of happiness which is the accumulation of 'stuff'.

Of course Muslim countries have some of the lowest crime rates in the world. Is this what you'd like to see in the west?

Edited to remove link to a graphic and distressing photo

It's not as cut and dry as you see it Looby.

That youth was punished under 'Sharia Law'.

Please know, Sharia Law is NOT synonymous with Islamic law. I think that is your first mistake.

Sharia Law is practiced in varying degrees in Muslim countries.

What that child did falls under what is called the 'Hadd offences' under Sharia Law. These are crimes punished by specific penalties, such as stoning, lashes or the severing of a hand. The penalties for Hadd offences ARE NOT universally adopted as law in Islamic countries.

Some countries, such as Saudi Arabia, claim to live under pure sharia law and enforce the penalties for Hadd offences. In others, such as Pakistan, the penalties have not been enforced. The majority of Middle Eastern countries, including Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon and Syria, HAVE NOT adopted Hadd offences as part of their state laws.

So let's sum up:

1) Islamic countries DO NOT all have the same system of law.

2) The punishment of that child was carried out in Iran, which has adopted portions of Sharia Law. NOT ALL Muslim countries have Sharia Law. They have it in varying degrees. In fact, the majority of Islamic countries DO NOT enforce the Hadd offences and subsequent punishment for such offences.

Think of like New Jersey NOT having the death penalty although Texas does. They are part of the same country although their individual laws differ.

3) Proponents of Sharia Law argue that it is a crime deterrent. Again, most Islamic countries have some of the lowest crime rates in the world so like their methods or not, you cannot say they DO NOT WORK.

Sure, TO US AMERICANS, it's sad what happened to that child, however we are judging his punishment by OUR OWN JUSTICE SYSTEM.

Over here, that child would have been slapped on the wrist, released, and most likely would have repeated the behavior at other points in his life, ultimately ending up in prison, payed for by taxpayers like you and me.

In Iran, that child will never commit another crime and as he grows up under that justice system, will accept his punishment.

And to be honest? If parents were being better parents, this child should have known better.

Please, please, please do a little more research on this Looby because it seems you are drastically misunderstanding this issue.

"In Iran, that child will never commit another crime and as he grows up under that justice system, will accept his punishment." What?
The odds are that child will most probably grow a traumatised, shattered individual. You may know a lot about the legal system in Muslim society, but know absolutely nothing about child psychology.

Except for the fact that my wife, RaQia, was raised Muslim and I have broad exposure to Muslims living both here and in the Middle East.

And what they tell me is that people take responsibility for their actions. No children who commit crimes and get punished under Sharia law (my wife knows of one family whose son had his right hand cutoff for repeatedly stealing produce from a local market) feel dejected or need Prozac to get them through life. They take responsibility for their actions and go on with life.

How about you? How many Middle Eastern Muslim families do you know? How many children who have been punished under Sharia Law, that have grown up to be men, do you know? If the answer is none, how can you possibly make such a baseless statement such as that?

I may not agree with that boys hand cutting off, but I am judging the situation as someone who was born and raised in America, with American values. If I were born and raised in a Muslim country, I might look at a child in America who repeatedly steals produce and walks away with a slap on the toosh as very odd.

You may know a lot about child psychology in America but I think in keeping with your understanding of Muslim society (or lack of it) your idea of how a Muslim child would react to a situation such as this falls vastly short of the truth.

I think you're looking at all of Muslim society through and American lens looby. When that's done, anything non-American doesn't seem to make much sense.

"I think you're looking at all of Muslim society through and (sic) American lens looby."
Sorry to disappoint you, but i'm not American, i'm English. More specifically I live in Leeds, a city with a massive Islamic community (and one which has the dubious honour as being the birthplace of Europes first home-grown suicide bombers. I know many Muslims and most of them are decent, hard-working people with a strong sense of family. Though not 30+ bunch who attacked my local pub a couple of months ago and preceded to smash it to bits (and kick my head in in the process) because they don't like people drinking alcohol on a Friday.

That's terrible. I'm glad you're okay.

Do you think that incident perhaps influenced your opinion of Muslims and Islam?

Of course an event like that would influence a person. That's what acts of abuse like that do. Wether it's an Adult getting beaten senseless by a bunch of baying fanatics in a pub, or an 8 year old child getting held down in the middle of the road and having a bunch of baying fanatics run his arm over with a car. I was guilty of drinking alcohol (Allah forbid) on a Friday no less, and that poor child was guily of stealing a loaf of bread.
That's the point i'm trying to make, abuse can shape a person. (And very rarely for the better).

Can we please keep the tone friendly and non-confrontational. We no longer have the Controversial Issues forum for a good reason, threads can turn unpleasant. This is FUNtrivia, controversy isn't fun for most of our members.

Please keep to the topic, which is Medieval Islam.

As a trained historian, I'm a bit concerned by the claims here. There was no unified "Islamic Golden Age," and no one group of intellectual Muslims who contributed to western culture -- any more than one group of westerners contributed to the intellectual culture of the Middle East and Asia.

Most educated people are aware (I hope) that some important Muslims did keep alive some Aristotelian translations and traditions and did develop important fields in mathematics, philosophy, and medicine. However, while Averroes and Avicenna, in particular, deserve much attention from the west, it must be pointed out that the various Caliphates were fractured and constantly fighting with one another. The Ummayid Cordoban Caliphate, the Abbasid Caliphate, the Fatimids in Egypt -- they were constantly at war. The Crusades certainly didn't help -- they were, to be blunt -- disastrous -- but the Mongol invasions, for which the Christian West wasn't responsible, destroyed much Islamic intellectual culture by the 13th century. And yet, by the early 14th century, classical culture and inquiry in the west were being fueled by the researches of many western writers, who didn't read Arabic but were finding ancient Latin and Greek manuscripts in western monastic establishments and who had no contact with Muslim scholars (though they certainly would have appreciated such contact).

Which is to say that western culture, though in many ways still hidebound, was moving on by the 14th-century and was far ahead by the dawn of the early modern period in the mid-late 16th century. It was positively leaping forward, intellectually speaking, by the turn of the 17th, whereas the Ottoman Empire, following its great triumph of 1453, was not, for local cultural and political reasons that had nothing to do with the west.

My point is that it's really quite silly to claim that this or that culture or religious faith "owns" a particular sector of historical intellectual achievement. Islam kept Aristotle alive to a certain extent, but Aristotle predated Islam. Greece may have borrowed certain important developments from Egypt, causing modern African-Americans to claim that Black people developed this or that aspect of classical culture -- but does it really matter, when ancient Egypt was such a multi-cultural society?

Our modern culture, intellectual, technogical, literary, and historical, is the product of a widely-varied, global past. Why is that not enough for all of us to know?

Thankyou, lanfranco . It is clear and well constructed posts like yours that show me I have a lot to learn, and that I stand a good chance of learning from members like you, with your wide knowledge of the evolution of Western Culture. Thanks again.

Quote:

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My point is that it's really quite silly to claim that this or that culture or religious faith "owns" a particular sector of historical intellectual achievement. Islam kept Aristotle alive to a certain extent, but Aristotle predated Islam. Greece may have borrowed certain important developments from Egypt, causing modern African-Americans to claim that Black people developed this or that aspect of classical culture -- but does it really matter, when ancient Egypt was such a multi-cultural society?

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Ren is right. Thanks for weaving the book knowledge with a bit of common sense for us, lanfranco.

I would also like to thank you, Ianfranco. I find it much easier to understand, and therefore learn, when someone like you 'lays it out' in a clear, concise way. Your last thoughts summed it up. Sandy
"Our modern culture, intellectual, technogical, literary, and historical, is the product of a widely-varied, global past. Why is that not enough for all of us to know?"

I realize that this is a discussion of Medieval Islam, bit still, I would like to respond to Daboosh's claim that Islamic society is less materialistic than Western society. You will not a better example of "conspicuous consumption" than the Gulf States. I also think it is significant that any time there is a dialogue about Muslim vs Western society, the question centers around "medieval" Islamic society. Perhaps I should stop here, before I say things that may be too contentious.

Please stay on topic.

I realize that my comment to follow may be slightly simplistic - but are all humans not created with equal human traits - then some of them are
"MADE EVIL?"
Seems to suit the term "Medieval Islam"