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#394501 - Fri Nov 02 2007 10:04 AM Re: Grammar, spacing, quotations - right and wrong *DELETED*
Hermit007 Offline
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Registered: Sun Oct 07 2007
Posts: 37
Loc: Iron Bridge Ontario Canada   
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#394502 - Fri Nov 02 2007 10:21 AM Re: Grammar, spacing, quotations - right and wrong
funnytrivianna Offline
Forum Adept

Registered: Sun Oct 22 2006
Posts: 152
Loc: Ontario Canada
I am sure some of the comments have been deleted Hermit. I had made an inappropriate referral regarding a quiz and mentioned the author's name, that sort of thing. In all due respect for that author, I am quite sure that parts of the thread pertaining to that, were removed. Rightfully so, too, might I add. You did not say or do anything wrong.
The discussion has been a good one, with a little bit of heat, but a really good talk here. I do not want anyone to get hurt and neither does anyone moderating this forum, so I am sure that part was deleted. Not to worry about yourself, okay Hermit?

Thanks all for participating.
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#394503 - Fri Nov 02 2007 10:25 AM Re: Grammar, spacing, quotations - right and wrong
funnytrivianna Offline
Forum Adept

Registered: Sun Oct 22 2006
Posts: 152
Loc: Ontario Canada
There is another way of looking at things too. Sleeping on it, has helped me think from another point of view.
It has occurred to me, that some of our quizzes may be edited with more perfection because it is a really great quiz. The editors are quite likely wanting those types of quizzes to be as near to perfect as possible, because, maybe they are proud to see a quiz that is different, or to see a new promising author and they want us to really be on our toes to do things as well as we possibly can.
So, today, I say KUDOS to the editors for jobs well done too.
Thanks All!
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#394504 - Fri Nov 02 2007 10:56 AM Re: Grammar, spacing, quotations - right and wrong
sue943 Online   content
Administrator

Registered: Sun Dec 19 1999
Posts: 37357
Loc: Jersey
Channel Islands    
I can clear up the mystery of the missing posts, yes, funnytrivianna is correct, we had to remove the posts referring to the quizmaker by name and there was one giving the quiz number. The software is such that we cannot just edit out one post, we need to move all the replies too. Sorry.
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#394505 - Fri Nov 02 2007 11:10 AM Re: Grammar, spacing, quotations - right and wrong *DELETED*
Hermit007 Offline
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Registered: Sun Oct 07 2007
Posts: 37
Loc: Iron Bridge Ontario Canada   
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#394506 - Fri Nov 02 2007 01:45 PM Re: Grammar, spacing, quotations - right and wrong
agony Online   content

Administrator

Registered: Sat Mar 29 2003
Posts: 14908
Loc: Western Canada
There is something to your point about editing some quizzes differently than others.

If an author is capable of writing a sentence like "i relaly love hillary duff" as the interesting info for a quiz, there is no point in me pointing out errors in semicolon usage. It's like fiddling with the icing on the cake while the oven is on fire.

However, if an author can write a coherent English sentence, then, sure, I'll start on the fine points. I'm always going to try to coax that little bit more out of you. (Until you get better than I am, then I'll stop!)

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#394507 - Fri Nov 02 2007 02:46 PM Re: Grammar, spacing, quotations - right and wrong
funnytrivianna Offline
Forum Adept

Registered: Sun Oct 22 2006
Posts: 152
Loc: Ontario Canada
Agony,

You deserve a big HUG for being so funny and bratty with that post. I really like your way and you are like a breath of fresh air! It is always great to see the human side of editors and authors. It just can't always be serious!

Thanks for making me giggle!

Giz
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#394508 - Fri Nov 02 2007 06:52 PM Re: Grammar, spacing, quotations - right and wrong
ladymacb29 Offline
Moderator

Registered: Wed Mar 15 2000
Posts: 15905
Loc: The Delta Quadrant
Quote:

There is something to your point about editing some quizzes differently than others.

If an author is capable of writing a sentence like "i relaly love hillary duff" as the interesting info for a quiz, there is no point in me pointing out errors in semicolon usage. It's like fiddling with the icing on the cake while the oven is on fire.

However, if an author can write a coherent English sentence, then, sure, I'll start on the fine points. I'm always going to try to coax that little bit more out of you. (Until you get better than I am, then I'll stop!)




Oh, that's definitely how I am - although minding that there's a minimum standard for the site. I remember one author in particular who it was so hard to get a quiz online and then when they started getting fairly good and easy to get the quizzes online, I started rejecting and asking for a little more interesting info to try and 'bring them up to the next level'. Now although that author's moved onto other categories, their quizzes are pretty good and I'm proud to have been a part of helping the author get better.
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#394509 - Sun Nov 04 2007 11:39 AM Re: Grammar, spacing, quotations - right and wrong
funnytrivianna Offline
Forum Adept

Registered: Sun Oct 22 2006
Posts: 152
Loc: Ontario Canada
It is really great to hear about the 'whys' of what you edit. Hearing you say how you assist the author to the next level is very encouraging. This is something that, maybe, the editors could include as a note when they send a quiz back. I don't know! In any case, I really have enjoyed hearing the positives of your editing jobs. Thanks.
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#394510 - Sun Nov 04 2007 02:05 PM Re: Grammar, spacing, quotations - right and wrong
ladymacb29 Offline
Moderator

Registered: Wed Mar 15 2000
Posts: 15905
Loc: The Delta Quadrant
...adding it into every rejection notice would be, in my opinion, superfluous. In addition, we edit many quizzes each day and if we add it to authors we have already rejected, they may think we don't remember them.
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#394511 - Sun Nov 04 2007 03:05 PM Re: Grammar, spacing, quotations - right and wrong
Bruyere Offline
Star Poster

Registered: Sat Feb 10 2001
Posts: 18797
Loc: California USA
Sometimes I look at an author's past work and the current quiz I'm editing and send a message saying, 'ok, you've got X amount of quizzes online and you've taken 900 quizzes, let's see if we can get you more plays by modifying the way you've asked questions and varying the style a bit more.'
I mean, if someone's given the same old question in each sentence for each lyric selection or a similar situation. Most people are happy about this, and should be as I would not bother if I did not think it worthwhile, but on several occasions an author has taken this as totally out of bounds and overbearing etc. Therefore, my positive remarks are taken to be the opposite.

This is why I am careful about how I write to each author. Sometimes this approach is taken the wrong way.

Another thing that's happening frequently is that someone who has written a lot in other contexts strikes out for some reason or another and takes umbrage to our requests. I am one of those people although I survived it!
I remember Jazz returning a quiz of mine or telling me he'd fixed it to make it harder. I'd left in silly things that gave away an answer like a full stop or period after the correct one. Or I had worded it in a way that gave it away without meaning to.
I was used to making quizzes for large audiences of students, but the template here is quite different.

Oh well, we do our best.
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#394512 - Sun Nov 04 2007 09:33 PM Re: Grammar, spacing, quotations - right and wrong
ladymacb29 Offline
Moderator

Registered: Wed Mar 15 2000
Posts: 15905
Loc: The Delta Quadrant
Like Bruyere, I try to do the same, but sometimes it's hard to know which authors will 'take' the help positively and which won't. Also, sometimes authors who have been getting quizzes online easily will sometimes begin getting sloppy with their work, so the editor may have to give them a little note that their quality has been slipping a little and we've noticed...
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"Without the darkness, how would we see the light?" ~ Tuvok

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#394513 - Mon Nov 05 2007 10:59 AM Re: Grammar, spacing, quotations - right and wrong
guitargoddess Online   FT-cool
Moderator

Registered: Mon Jul 09 2007
Posts: 39544
Loc: Ottawa Ontario Canada         
Quote:

Also, sometimes authors who have been getting quizzes online easily will sometimes begin getting sloppy with their work, so the editor may have to give them a little note that their quality has been slipping a little and we've noticed...




Ha. I think this is me.
I personally think my quality is slipping, anyways.
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#394514 - Mon Nov 05 2007 11:03 AM Re: Grammar, spacing, quotations - right and wrong
jonnowales Offline
Prolific

Registered: Mon Oct 30 2006
Posts: 1529
Loc: Swansea
Wales UK
GG,

I am like that as well. I have often submitted a quiz and I think it isn't up to par with some of my other quizzes. They seem to be received fine though.

Though, I think being told your standards are slipping is certainly a good way to encourage you to improve your game so to speak.

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#394515 - Mon Nov 05 2007 11:44 PM Re: Grammar, spacing, quotations - right and wrong *DELETED*
Hermit007 Offline
Participant

Registered: Sun Oct 07 2007
Posts: 37
Loc: Iron Bridge Ontario Canada   
Post deleted by Hermit007

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#394516 - Tue Nov 06 2007 06:02 AM Re: Grammar, spacing, quotations - right and wrong
JuniorTheJaws Offline
Forum Champion

Registered: Sun Sep 09 2001
Posts: 5400
Loc: South Philadelphia PA USA    
Quote:

Looking back at my first quiz I'm amazed it got even considered, let alone published! Looks pretty stupid and immature to me now.




The reason for this is guidelines change over time, and the quality of quizzes become better the more an author creates quizzes.

With each quiz comes experience and know-how.

Even me, when I look at my very first quizzes I feel like cringing. That is the way the ball bounces sometimes, but in the long run, look at your quizzes now...what do they say about the type of author you have become? I am sure your quizzes will show how much you have grown as an author...which is what we want, and that wouldn't have happened without the newer guidelines and persistent editors.



------
Agnes (JTJ)

Editor: Celebrities/Entertainment/Video Games


Edited by JuniorTheJaws (Tue Nov 06 2007 06:06 AM)
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#394517 - Mon Nov 12 2007 03:10 PM Re: Grammar, spacing, quotations - right and wrong
funnytrivianna Offline
Forum Adept

Registered: Sun Oct 22 2006
Posts: 152
Loc: Ontario Canada
Well said everyone! This has been an enjoyable and informative topic. Thanks for all of your input.

Giz
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#394518 - Fri Mar 06 2009 08:58 PM Re: Grammar, spacing, quotations - right and wrong
darthrevan89 Offline
Mainstay

Registered: Tue May 13 2008
Posts: 760
Loc: Texas USA
Apologies for drudging this old thread up, but I am utterly and hopelessly confused about the issue of quotation marks.

All my life, everything I've been taught & have read (including some very reliable magazines, with a reputation for excellent grammar), places sentence punctuation (periods & commas) within the quotation marks. Titles, quotes, phrases, etc.: they all go inside the quotation marks. However, when I do this, I have noticed that some editors change it. I have recently read the QCN's for Quotation Marks, and they specifically say that for titles, place the sentence punctuation outside. This disagrees with what I know from experience and have researched regarding American English, but in regard to FT's rules I will start writing titles that way so that the editors won't feel compelled to change it. However, why do they insist on my conformation to British English on simple quotations & phrases? I feel I have made no mistake in writing the way most in my country do, and I don't care for being made to feel like I have.

I mean absolutely no offense to the editors, it has never been pointed out to me as a mistake, they have simply taken care of it. I appreciate their not making an issue of it, but I would like to know why I can't write the way everything I read is written. I am certainly no grammar expert, so apologies if I & my sources are dead wrong on this.

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#394519 - Fri Mar 06 2009 09:29 PM Re: Grammar, spacing, quotations - right and wrong
guitargoddess Online   FT-cool
Moderator

Registered: Mon Jul 09 2007
Posts: 39544
Loc: Ottawa Ontario Canada         
I'm not sure in the case of quotes and phrases, but I believe in the case of titles it is because the punctuation is not a part of the title. The only reason you are putting quotes around a title is to show that it is the title of a work. In a different medium, you would italicize the title of a book or film, etc. if possible (depending on what manual of style you follow, but all the ones that I've encountered follow this rule).

So you wouldn't write:

Have you seen the movie "Titanic?"

because the movie's title is not a question. So when using a different form of punctuation you follow the same format and place it outside the quote marks:

Let's watch "Titanic".

Sorry if that made no sense at all, I feel like I'm rambling!
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#394520 - Fri Mar 06 2009 09:32 PM Re: Grammar, spacing, quotations - right and wrong
bloomsby Offline
Moderator

Registered: Sun Apr 29 2001
Posts: 4073
Loc: Norwich England UK            
I think the answer is probably that in British English the final punctuation mark, usually a full stop (period) is placed outside the quotation marks (inverted commas). It has a certain logic, too.

Quiz editor, History and People.

Edited to add: GG and I were posting at the same time. She makes the point about the logic of keeping the final punctuation mark outside the quotation marks (in most cases at least) very well.


Edited by bloomsby (Fri Mar 06 2009 09:36 PM)

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#394521 - Sat Mar 07 2009 12:10 AM Re: Grammar, spacing, quotations - right and wrong
queproblema Offline
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Registered: Mon Sep 25 2006
Posts: 869
Loc: Kenny Lake Alaska USA     
Yes, but Darth's point is that we don't do that in the US.

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#394522 - Sat Mar 07 2009 01:52 AM Re: Grammar, spacing, quotations - right and wrong
dg_dave Offline
Champion Poster

Registered: Sun Oct 05 2003
Posts: 23616
Loc: near Stafford, Virginia USA  
I have seen some English textbooks (written in the US) that say you can place the period or comma outside the quote marks. It looks backwards to me, but it is permissible.
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#394523 - Sat Mar 07 2009 01:53 AM Re: Grammar, spacing, quotations - right and wrong
Leau Offline
Forum Champion

Registered: Sun Jun 16 2002
Posts: 5337
Loc: Nijmegen/Brisbane
When I edit a quiz, I don't care which rule is followed when it comes to punctuation in quotes, as long as it's done consistently throughout the quiz.
I do think it makes no sense at all to put punctuation within the quotation marks but I'm aware it's the way it's done in American English, so who am I to insist on a different rule.

Leau, editor


Edited by Leau (Sat Mar 07 2009 01:54 AM)
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#394524 - Sat Mar 07 2009 07:18 AM Re: Grammar, spacing, quotations - right and wrong
Jedi_Padawan Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: Fri Aug 01 2008
Posts: 450
Loc: Florida USA
I remember specifically reading once (in an American English textbook) that periods and commas should always be placed inside the parentheses (for example, [I've seen "Titanic."] or [In the movie "Titanic," when...], etc.) and all other punctuation ([Have you seen "Titanic"?]) should be placed outside the parentheses. This is always how I've done it in my quizzes, and I don't recall ever having it changed. :^)

~ Lizzie
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#394525 - Sat Mar 07 2009 08:04 AM Re: Grammar, spacing, quotations - right and wrong
darthrevan89 Offline
Mainstay

Registered: Tue May 13 2008
Posts: 760
Loc: Texas USA
Thank you all for the replies on this. Yes, in my research I have discovered that the punctuation always goes outside in British English, but in American English, as Jedi_Padawan says, periods & commas go inside. And as dg_dave said, it looks backwards to me as well to do it outside, so it is a "pet peeve" of mine to do it the way I'm used to.

In one of my older quizzes, it wasn't just titles that had the commas moved. A phrase I was emphasizing that I had written, "good guys," became "good guys", under the editor's editing. Also, and I've never seen it done this way before, but my dialogue punctuation was changed as well: I had (with an obvious word change ), "Blah blah blah," the man said. That was changed to, "Blah blah blah", the man said.

And then some of the editors are like you, Leau, they don't change a thing. I understand that some have their own personal pet peeves, just like I do, but it sure makes things confusing when I write how I'm used to and it gets changed to a way that just looks "wrong" to me.


Edited by darthrevan89 (Sat Mar 07 2009 08:05 AM)

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