#407386 - Thu Feb 07 2008 07:26 AM
Re: Heath Ledger --- Dead?
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Star Poster
Registered: Thu Oct 07 1999
Posts: 10282
Loc: New York USA
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There is no longer any mystery about what killed Mr Ledger--he abused prescription drugs. That was the ruling of the NYC Medical Examiner. He ingested a lethal "cocktail" of opiate painkillers and anti-anxiety drugs (all of which are strongly legally controlled substances) and this depressed his respiratory functions and caused his death. No reputable doctor would ever prescribe these medications to all be taken at the same time, but it is a drug combination often used by recreational drug abusers to achieve a high. The painkillers he ingested have properties similar to morphine and heroine, and are abused for much the same reasons. Mr. Ledger knew what he was doing, he just likely didn't think it would kill him.
I don't think that this necessarily means that Mr Ledger was either sick or bad. But it certainly suggests that he was not innocent or naive about what he was doing. It certainly raises questions about how easily prescriptions for such highly controlled substances can be obtained (hence the investigation by the U.S. Drug Enforcement Agency in this death). Doctors, and not just pharmacists, are fully responsible for knowing the effects of drugs they prescribe, including addictive and abuse potential. They are legally supposed to limit the number of prescriptions they write for controlled substances.
If Mr. Ledger's tragic, and rather senseless, death is to have any meaning, it should be as a cautionary tale for the abuse of prescription drugs. About 6 million Americans have problems with prescription drug abuse, and about one third of those people are teenagers. Simply because these drugs are made and marketed by pharmaceutical companies does not mean they are safe or free from the problems of commonly abused illegal street substances. What's worse is the fact that they can oftenly be easily obtained, by prescription, or on the internet, or even on the street. But they can devastate and end lives just as easily as the cocaine and heroine sold by the neighborhood drug dealer. And physicians, knowingly or unknowingly, can facilitate this process by becoming legalized drug dealers if strong government monitoring of their prescription writing practices does not take place.
Mr Ledger's fine film work will stand as a monument to his life and his talent. He was a gifted actor. But, if his untimely death will help to save another life from destruction, due to prescription drug abuse, then that will be another gift of his legacy.
_________________________
Still Crazy After All These Years
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#407387 - Thu Feb 07 2008 08:12 AM
Re: Heath Ledger --- Dead?
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Forum Champion
Registered: Mon Apr 22 2002
Posts: 5007
Loc: Western Australia
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Quote:
Mr. Ledger knew what he was doing
And how do you know this? Did you know him personally? Were you there when he ingested the medications?
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Don't say "I can't" ... say " I haven't learned how, yet." (Reg Bolton)
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#407388 - Thu Feb 07 2008 08:35 AM
Re: Heath Ledger --- Dead?
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Pure Diamond
Registered: Fri May 18 2001
Posts: 123698
Loc: Canton
Ohio USA
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I felt compelled to add this to the discussion. Heath's father, Kim, issued the following statement yesterday. Whatever need be said, or will be considered, I think (for me) his Dad's words probably wrap up this whole tragic episode best... Quote:
We remain humble as parents and a family, among millions of people worldwide who may have suffered the tragic loss of a child. Few can understand the hollow, wrenching, and enduring agony parents silently suffer when a child predeceases them. Today's results put an end to speculation, but our son's beautiful spirit and enduring memory will forever remain in our hearts.
While no medications were taken in excess, we learned today the combination of doctor-prescribed drugs proved lethal for our boy. Heath's accidental death serves as a caution to the hidden dangers of combining prescription medication, even at low dosage.
Our family enjoyed an extremely happy two week visit with Heath just prior to the New Year. Those recent precious days will stay with us forever. We as a family feel privileged to have some of his amazing magic moments captured in film. To most of the world Heath was an actor of immeasurable talent and promise. To those who knew him personally, Heath was a consummate artist whose passions also included photography, music, chess and directing. We knew Heath as a loving father, as our devoted son, and as a loyal and generous brother and friend
We treasure our beautiful granddaughter Matilda (to our dear Michelle) as well as an unbelievably wonderful network of close friends, forever, around the world. Families rarely experience the uplifting, warm and massive outpouring of grief and support as have we, from every corner of the planet. This has deeply and profoundly touched our hearts and lives. We are eternally grateful.
_________________________
"The best teacher is not the one who knows most but the one who is most capable of reducing knowledge to that simple compound of the obvious and wonderful." ... H. L. Mencken
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#407390 - Thu Feb 07 2008 04:30 PM
Re: Heath Ledger --- Dead?
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Moderator
Registered: Wed Mar 15 2000
Posts: 16214
Loc: The Delta Quadrant
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According to the radio yesterday, he wasn't getting reief from the medicines. I'm assuming he probably took more than prescribed/took more than one at a time in an attempt to get some relief from his insomnia.
I know when I was getting bad headaches (before I saw a neurologist), I started taking 3 Tylenol at a time. Then I'd take them 4 hours apart... then, 'well, 3.5 hours is pretty close to 4...' I just wanted to avoid taking the prescription drug that contained codeine because I knew that was addictive. And then the Tylenol stopped working, and so did the prescription...
If I'd continued down that path, who knows what could have happened to me?
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"Without the darkness, how would we see the light?" ~ Tuvok
Editor for Television Category
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#407391 - Thu Feb 07 2008 04:46 PM
Re: Heath Ledger --- Dead?
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Prolific
Registered: Fri Jun 20 2003
Posts: 1179
Loc: Bay Area California USA
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Yes, "abuse of prescription medications" does not necessarily imply intentional abuse. As in ladymacb's case, people sometimes just start taking more and more or different combinations to try to get some relief. Misusing it in such a way is still called abuse. Doesn't mean the intent was to get high.
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#407392 - Fri Feb 08 2008 12:25 AM
Re: Heath Ledger --- Dead?
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Multiloquent
Registered: Wed Nov 12 2003
Posts: 2165
Loc: Nebraska USA
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Quote:
Yes, "abuse of prescription medications" does not necessarily imply intentional abuse. As in ladymacb's case, people sometimes just start taking more and more or different combinations to try to get some relief. Misusing it in such a way is still called abuse. Doesn't mean the intent was to get high.
That's sort of what I was trying to get at earlier, too. Misusing any prescription drug, whether intentionally or unintentionally is "abuse" and that makes the medical examiner's ruling vague at best. From what I read, there is no way for the public to say for certain that the ME meant Mr. Ledger intentionally abused those prescriptions to get high. That very well could be the case, but it is not actually what the ME's statement says.
Of course doctors are responsible for knowing enough about any drug to focus on treating symptoms while weighing risk factors against possible gain. But that is a far cry from being expected to know everything that every drug they prescribe can do, in or not in combination with other drugs. Which is why, for example, when I had a fairly rare central nervous system reaction to an antibiotic (something that can happen with ANY type of antibiotic, but in only a very small percentage of the population) the prescribing doctor told me that antibiotic couldn't do that to a person, and asked if I had ever been diagnosed as clinically depressed. I pointed out to that doctor that the information pamphlet with my prescription specifically said that rare side effects could include the ones I was experiencing and I should contact my doctor if I did, and he maintained that the drug "could not" do that. I then went to the manufacturer's website and printed off their literature detailing central nervous system reactions in something like 1% of patients, highlighted all the symptoms that matched exactly to what I had, took it down to his office and handed it over to him with the additional message that I would not be back. I know that doctors don't specialize in pharmaceuticals, that is what pharmacists are for, and that my doctor being unaware of that type of reaction is probably not that uncommon. But I hate doctors who don't listen to patients. 
_________________________
Goodbye Ruth & Betty, my beautiful grandmothers.
Betty Kuzara 1921 - April 5, 2008
Ruth Kellison 1925 - Dec 27, 2007
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#407393 - Fri Feb 08 2008 01:40 PM
Re: Heath Ledger --- Dead?
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Star Poster
Registered: Sat Feb 10 2001
Posts: 18899
Loc: California USA
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I think that interactions from prescribed medications are quite common no matter where you are.
In America where we can get lots of things OTC that you cannot purchase that way in other countries, we could conceivably be taking quite a few things and then, if a doctor prescribes something else, the list grows and we could find ourselves drugged in no time. I've had it reach a critical point myself when treating a severe cough and working and taking a medication that supposedly lasts twelve hours but does not, so you take another dose or another kind of thing and you suddenly feel worse. I have had pneumonia several times and not known it until I finally went to the doctor's and got scolded and was given steroids, which can cause another reaction. It can happen to the best of us.
I see this happening with seniors like my grandmother and my mother in law. They believe in medicine and take the prescriptions the doctors give them but basically, they're given about ten a day and it all adds up. It gets to the point where they are in a haze and overdose without some supervision. These are intelligent women who are in their golden years and who firmly believe in their doctors' advice. If every time they see a doctor for some symptom, they are given a different medication, it becomes impossible to distinguish their symptoms and easy to overdose on all that stuff.
It could happen to the most wary person like me and almost did on several occasions. If like LadyMacBeth you take one medication for something and it does not bring you relief, then you take something else, you've probably overdosed yourself. I remember taking something to control my severe coughing at night to get some sleep, then, it didn't work and I took a capsule. I ended up feeling much worse and having to go to the doctor for the works. Once I knew I had asthma though, they gave me prednisone which can severely depress you. If I was taking a few other things for other symptoms, not sleeping well, I might well have overdosed on one of those things, prescription or not.
I remember when I came out of the hospital this past summer after surgery. I went to the pharmacy and had a list of ten things to take and the one was for if the other one made me sick. I'm an intelligent but wary woman and yet, if I had not talked this over with the pharmacist, I'd have filled them all, and maybe been under that influence for a lot longer. As I'd been on a pain pump for a few days, they gave me a prescription painkiller for a whole month's worth!
If I had not been vigilant about my own treatment, I'd have been subject to interactions. I simply let my body tell me if it was ready to get off of the heavy duty stuff and switch to a milder over the counter remedy for pain.
I think that this could happen to most anyone, not just a person in the public eye undergoing depression over a breakup and a demanding role.
I don't feel it's my place to judge his pain or if he ignored signs of over use of prescribed medicines because he had lost sleep and was in a vicious cycle of sleep loss and medication to prevent that. I simply feel that we need to be wary of prescribed medication as much as we do illicit drugs. It could happen to anyone.
I think that he did his best to live his life and I am sorry about the loss to his family and friends.
_________________________
I was born under a wandering star.
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#407394 - Fri Feb 08 2008 07:47 PM
Re: Heath Ledger --- Dead?
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Star Poster
Registered: Thu Oct 07 1999
Posts: 10282
Loc: New York USA
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I suppose that seeing Ledger as some sort of suffering victim, who simply popped one pill after another in a desperate attempt to get "relief" from something or other, might be more palatable to some of his fans than acknowledging that the guy might have had a prescription drug abuse problem. The facts are that 5 of the 6 drugs found in Ledger's system are among the most highly abused drugs in this country, and prescription drugs in these classes (opiates and benzodiazapines) are more frequently abused than either heroine or cocaine. Abused, as in taken for non-medical purposes (i.e. to get high). One of the two painkillers found in Ledger's body is even known as "hillbilly heroine". There is no conceivable medical reason to ingest all of the drugs which Ledger took in combination. The fact that the majority of drugs found in his system were all controlled substances, and are the most highly abused prescription drugs by recreational drug abusers, does indicate he was likely seeking something other than "relief" from a medical ailment. It wasn't a random concoction of drugs found in his body--it was a specific grouping of those prescription medications most often used to get high. I think it is rather naive to view this as mere coincidence, and not consider the possibility that the man had a problem with prescription drug abuse. Ironically, on the day that Ledger's body was found, the White House was about to launch a $30 million ad campaign on the problems of prescription drug abuse in order to heighten public awareness of the seriousness of this problem. They postponed the campaign because they did not want to appear to be exploiting the actor's death. The ads have just started running and I saw one on TV today. It was quite good. It is a very serious problem, and, unfortunately, a growing problem. Prescription drugs are more frequently abused than any of the illegal street drugs, with the exception of marijuana. That's a rather staggering fact. By the way, I believe that today is the anniversary of the death of Anna Nicole Smith, another victim of prescription drug abuse. Believe what you will about why Heath Ledger ingested that fatal cocktail of drugs. My own feelings about it are similar to those of Roger Roeper, the film critic for the Chicage Sun Times, who had this to say about it: Quote:
Accident or not, Ledger's death is senseless
February 7, 2008
BY RICHARD ROEPER Sun-Times Columnist
Like John Belushi and Elvis and Marilyn Monroe and many others, Heath Ledger was felled by accidental overdose, says the New York medical examiner.
Official cause of death: "Acute intoxication by the combined effects of oxycodone, hydrocodone, diazepam, temazepam, alprazolam and doxylamine." In other words: pain-killers, anti-anxiety pills and sleeping pills.
Said Ledger's family: "While no medications were taken in excess, we learned today the combination of doctor-prescribed drugs proved lethal. ... Heath's accidental death serves as a caution to the hidden dangers of combining prescription medication, even at low dosage."
So sad. As one would expect, his family is devastated by this tragedy.
It's important to Ledger's family that his legacy states his death was an accident, that the drugs he ingested weren't junkie staples such as coke or heroin. These were pills you might find in any medicine cabinet.
Fair enough. You can't blame them. But that doesn't make Ledger's death at 28 any less tragic or senseless than Belushi's death at 33 from a heroin-cocaine speedball overdose in Bungalow No. 3 in the Chateau Marmont.
The problem isn't taking the occasional Vicodin for pain, or a sleeping pill once in a while. The problem is mixing them like M&Ms and swallowing them in dangerous quantities and combinations.
You get one prescription from one doctor; another from another doctor that doesn't know about the first prescription. Maybe you get another bottle of pills from a friend. It isn't that difficult to accumulate a potentially deadly arsenal of legal, prescription drugs that can kill you just as dead as a speedball injection.
It's likely that on the day he died, Ledger felt the same fuzzy, comfortably numb sensation he'd felt a dozen times before after combining medications. Only this time he didn't wake up.
I sincerely hope that Ledger's death will be a wake-up call to alert people about the dangers of prescription drug abuse, and the consequences that can occur from the reckless use of any prescription medications.
Edited by chelseabelle (Fri Feb 08 2008 07:59 PM)
_________________________
Still Crazy After All These Years
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#407396 - Fri Feb 08 2008 08:01 PM
Re: Heath Ledger --- Dead?
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Forum Champion
Registered: Mon Apr 22 2002
Posts: 5007
Loc: Western Australia
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That is so true, Bruyere. Luckily, working in the medical field, I am very well informed about drugs but that hasn't stopped problems occurring.
One time I went to see a dermatologist and he was about to prescribe an antibiotic for me. I asked him "Isn't that a broad spectrum antibiotic?" He gave me a funny look and said "Yes, why?" I said, "Well, I'm already taking another broad spectrum antibiotic (can't remember the name after all these years) that the ear, nose and throat doctor prescribed for another problem". "Oh", he said, "Then you don't need to take these."
He never asked me if I was already taking any other medication, so if I had been the average patient, I would not have asked my question and almost certainly would have ended up taking twice the amount of antibiotic necessary.
(As an aside, this doctor was arguably the best dermatologist in Perth and wasn't used to having patients question his judgement. I eventually stopped going to him because he was so patronising towards me every time I asked a question. His attitude was "Who are you to question me?")
Another time, I had a gynaecological problem and my GP prescribed some common hormonal medication for me. Well, it sent me into a clinically depressed state which was very alarming for my husband who was having to deal with a "psychotic" wife. Luckily, he made the connection, rang my doctor and asked him if the medication could be causing it. The GP told him to stop my medication immediately, which he did - problem solved. But how many people would necessarily have made the connection between the depression and medication being taken for something else? What if I had not told my husband that the doctor had given me these tablets?
Personally, I really doubt that Heath Ledger knowingly abused prescription medications. I agree with Heather that it's not our place to judge him either way.
_________________________
Don't say "I can't" ... say " I haven't learned how, yet." (Reg Bolton)
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#407397 - Fri Feb 08 2008 08:25 PM
Re: Heath Ledger --- Dead?
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Forum Champion
Registered: Mon Apr 22 2002
Posts: 5007
Loc: Western Australia
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Quote:
I suppose that seeing Ledger as some sort of suffering victim, who simply popped one pill after another in a desperate attempt to get "relief" from something or other, might be more palatable to some of his fans than acknowledging that the guy might have had a prescription drug abuse problem.
While making my previous post after Bruyere's, another couple of posts have placed online.
I agree with Tasema. I found the above quote rather patronising. While I quite liked him as an actor, I didn't consider myself a "fan". I really hadn't thought much about him one way or another, so I was quite surprised at how sad I was to hear of his death. Maybe it was because, as I mentioned before, he was from my home town.
It annoys me to hear people state with authority, when they have none, that he committed suicide, or abused drugs deliberately. And it annoys me to have other people's quite reasonable interpretations of events dismissed as "naive".
I think most of the people who posted in this thread would be willing to accept that he might have deliberately abused prescription medication should any hard evidence be revealed but they are not prepared to accept that at this early stage merely based on assertions.
Edited by MotherGoose (Fri Feb 08 2008 08:27 PM)
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Don't say "I can't" ... say " I haven't learned how, yet." (Reg Bolton)
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#407398 - Fri Feb 08 2008 09:15 PM
Re: Heath Ledger --- Dead?
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Multiloquent
Registered: Wed Nov 12 2003
Posts: 2165
Loc: Nebraska USA
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Quote:
Quote:
I suppose that seeing Ledger as some sort of suffering victim, who simply popped one pill after another in a desperate attempt to get "relief" from something or other, might be more palatable to some of his fans than acknowledging that the guy might have had a prescription drug abuse problem.
I think most of the people who posted in this thread would be willing to accept that he might have deliberately abused prescription medication should any hard evidence be revealed but they are not prepared to accept that at this early stage merely based on assertions.
That's exactly it. I know I, at least, have pointed out in both my posts on the subject that it's entirely possible that he WAS doing it intentionally, just that I hadn't seen anything yet that made it clear one way or another, and that it would be sad, to me, if it WAS an accident, for the public to connect the word "abuse" in the ME's statement with "druggie" when in actuality it only means "misuse" and could have been unintentional.
I'm not naive, and I don't have any personal reason to avoid the idea that Ledger was intentionally abusing prescription drugs. Heck, when I had my wisdom teeth pulled, my ex-husband took the remainder of my hydrocodone prescription and sold them for $10 a pill so he could buy my birthday present. (I didn't know that at the time, until I missed the bottle from the cabinet and a friend of his asked me if he had any more.) I've had enough friends in my lifetime who had drug problems of various sorts, including prescription medications, to know that it happens all too often and it is a big deal. But I've also known too many people who have been blindsided by serious medical problems by unintentionally or unknowingly misusing prescription drugs, a few including some of those very drugs Ledger used, to know that it isn't always right to assume the worst about a person.
It matters very little to me one way or the other except as a matter of morbid fascination with semantics, I suppose. Whether he did it knowingly or unknowingly it's still a very sad loss. I just think it would be the more tragic if it were an accident and yet he is remembered as a drug addict.
_________________________
Goodbye Ruth & Betty, my beautiful grandmothers.
Betty Kuzara 1921 - April 5, 2008
Ruth Kellison 1925 - Dec 27, 2007
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#407399 - Sat Feb 09 2008 11:49 AM
Re: Heath Ledger --- Dead?
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Star Poster
Registered: Thu Oct 07 1999
Posts: 10282
Loc: New York USA
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I haven't been implying that Ledger was either a drug addict or a "druggie" (although I personally have no negative feelings about people who do use, or abuse, or are even addicted to drugs). I do think it is likely that he was a recreational prescription drug abuser, based on the particular combination of drugs found in his system. This is not a judgment of the man or a reflection on his character, and it does not mean that he was addicted to anything. One can abuse without being an addict.
There really is no significant difference between "drug abuse" and drug "misuse" when it comes to prescription drugs--both terms indicate drug use which is either for non-medical reasons, or which departs from prescribed manner of usage. Mr Ledger both misused and abused the controlled prescription drugs that killed him by recklessly ingesting them in non-prescribed combination. Whether his intention was to get high, or just knock himself out to get some sleep, his reckless actions caused his death. These controlled medications are all clearly labeled as being "dangerous substances", and such warnings must be taken very seriously by the user. While apparently not an intentional suicide, Ledger acted as recklessly with these pills as if he had driven at 100 mph on an ice slicked roads, in a hurry to get somewhere, and wound up slamming his car into a tree. He did cause his own death, and the death was senseless, tragic, and entirely avoidable.
Whether one wants to blame the doctors who may too easily write prescriptions for potentially dangerous (and possibly unneeded) controlled drugs, or the pharmaceutical companies who spent billions on advertising to convince us we should pop a pill for everything that ails us, ultimate responsibility resides with the consumer/patient/user to use controlled drugs with extreme caution, only as specifically prescribed, for particular medical conditions, and under a doctor's supervision. Even those who abuse these controlled drugs, to get high or mellow out, must understand these are not "safe drugs" just because they are obtained by prescription. They can be just as deadly as any illegal street drugs. Prescription drug abuse is not more "acceptable" than abuse of illegal street drugs--drug abuse is drug abuse.
I have no particular feelings about Mr Ledger one way or the other. I admired his film work, but would not call myself a fan. But, I do feel quite strongly about the dangers of prescription drug abuse, and the public health problems posed by such abuse. His death was due to acute intoxication as the result of prescription medication abuse. The Medical Examiner used the term "abuse" rather than "misuse" for a reason--to indicate that Ledger abused these drugs by taking them in a non-prescribed "cocktail" of his own concoction. It was the combination that killed him. Why he did this, we will never know for sure, and that will always be a matter of speculation. Perhaps he erroneously thought that taking a mixture of dangerous prescription drugs was "safer" than taking any one drug in excess. The bottom line is that he caused his own death by prescription drug abuse.
The number of celebrities constantly in the news for varying types of drug and alcohol abuse seems to be growing at a rapid rate, as is a windfall of publicity for the many rehab facilities they enter. Kirstin Dunst is apparently among the latest to enter a rehab this week. Britney Spears is publicly disintegrating in a frightening manner. Several others have died recently as a result of drug abuse--including prescription drug abuse. But celebrity drug use is only the tip of the iceberg in terms of the magnitude of the problem. Prescription drug abuse is now a major public health problem that must be looked at head on because millions of ordinary lives are being destroyed by prescription drug abuse--far more than are being destroyed by use of illegal street drugs.
Rather than rationalizing, or excusing, Mr Ledger's final use of those prescription drugs, in the manner that he did, we would be far wiser, as a society, to use his death as an opportunity to begin an objective discussion on the dangers of prescription drug abuse and seek methods of addressing this alarming and quite urgent public health crisis.
Edited by chelseabelle (Sat Feb 09 2008 11:53 AM)
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Still Crazy After All These Years
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#407400 - Sat Feb 09 2008 08:21 PM
Re: Heath Ledger --- Dead?
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Forum Champion
Registered: Mon Apr 22 2002
Posts: 5007
Loc: Western Australia
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Quote:
One can abuse without being an addict.
True, and I consider the relentless negative speculation about Heath Ledger's alleged drug abuse/misuse is also a form of abuse. In my humble opinion, the media (and others) are guilty of abusing Heath Ledger.
Edited by MotherGoose (Sun Feb 10 2008 01:36 AM)
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Don't say "I can't" ... say " I haven't learned how, yet." (Reg Bolton)
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#407401 - Sun Feb 10 2008 01:23 AM
Re: Heath Ledger --- Dead?
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Star Poster
Registered: Sat Feb 10 2001
Posts: 18899
Loc: California USA
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I was wondering if anyone else had heard about the tribute to him where people all went into the ocean for a swim? MG, have you heard about it? Or I imagine you have. I thought it sounded fitting. That's the sort of thing I'd want for me.
I keep thinking about the guy because he really was admired in my household the past few years and his films were played over and over on DVDs. For me, it's a sad way for a young man to go who could be my son chronologically.
I think if he'd been showing up on the 'celebrities behaving very badly' rosters, I'd have noticed it and not been as shocked. If it had been Mel Gibson or Russell Crowe, would we have been less surprised?
Anyway, I think Perth showed him a lovely farewell by taking a sunset dip in the ocean.
_________________________
I was born under a wandering star.
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#407402 - Sun Feb 10 2008 01:42 AM
Re: Heath Ledger --- Dead?
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Forum Champion
Registered: Mon Apr 22 2002
Posts: 5007
Loc: Western Australia
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Buryere, I can only go by what was printed in our local newspaper. They reported that after the memorial service at Penrhos College (an exclusive girls' school), a private burial service was conducted at Fremantle Cemetery, then a wake was held at the Indiana Tearooms on Cottesloe Beach. It's summer here right now and very hot. According to the newspaper, several of the guests left the wake to take a swim in the surf but there was nothing said about it being any form of tribute.
_________________________
Don't say "I can't" ... say " I haven't learned how, yet." (Reg Bolton)
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#407403 - Sun Feb 10 2008 09:48 PM
Re: Heath Ledger --- Dead?
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Multiloquent
Registered: Sat Jan 10 2004
Posts: 2470
Loc: Wollongong NSW Australia
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I saw news footage of many of the younger guests, including Michelle taking a dip in the ocean at Cottesloe as a farewell gesture. It was his favourite beach.
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Nothing matters half so much as you think it does.
Editor: Movies, Celebrities and General
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#407405 - Mon Feb 11 2008 12:25 AM
Re: Heath Ledger --- Dead?
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Prolific
Registered: Sun May 21 2000
Posts: 1778
Loc: Body: PA USA Heart: Paris
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Until there is a workable physicisn prescription tracking system in place to prevent 'doctor drug shopping' (patients go to a number of different physicians with the same complaint and receive duplicate prescriptions for that complaint) and until controls are enacted to safeguard abuses on the internet, I'm afraid nothing of any substance will be done. You can order virtually any drug on the internet without a prescription. As an example, I typed a Google request for 'drugs without prescription by mail' and look what I got (an example): http://prescriptionrxmedicinepharmacy.com/celexa.phpAs for Mr, Ledger, it's true he was gifted, talented, handsome, an excellent husband/father/son, enjoyed celebrity status and the money and percs that provides....which makes it difficult for me to muster much sympathy for him. That he could throw away all of the above, especially the love of a baby girl and a supportive family, so he could have an assortment of pain killers, sleeping aids, anti-anxiety medication and God only knows what else in bed with him makes him, in my book, a selfish, self-absorbed, impulse-driven ingrate who cared more about a pill bottle than family/friends/fans.
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I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did.
Yogi Berra
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#407406 - Mon Feb 11 2008 07:37 AM
Re: Heath Ledger --- Dead?
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Pure Diamond
Registered: Fri May 18 2001
Posts: 123698
Loc: Canton
Ohio USA
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That he could throw away all of the above, especially the love of a baby girl and a supportive family, so he could have an assortment of pain killers, sleeping aids, anti-anxiety medication and God only knows what else in bed with him makes him, in my book, a selfish, self-absorbed, impulse-driven ingrate who cared more about a pill bottle than family/friends/fans.
I can see some truth in that statement, I think - just some, though. Not significantly lots, however, in my opinion. While I agree that a parent, and Heath was (apparently) a doting and fiercely attentive one, should put a good chunk of his day/values/lifestyle/ambitions in as sensible a place as possible because his role as parent requires that he be there, that he watch and participate in the forming of a family and the lives in it. That he manages to get through his days with a clear sensibility that his responsiblity to someone (in this case his daughter ... just a footnote, he'd never married) is MUCH larger than is his responsibility to himself. But therein lies the "quicksand", I'm guessing. He had a profession which he loved and did well - thus the fans he managed to have and, I guess?, was expected to "live for" - and, fan base or no fan base, I think it's wise to be grateful for strangers buying tickets to your movies; however, I don't think one should get too carried away making life or death decisions about a day with a passel of adoring unknown faces as means to how one proceeds with said day [doing so, one might surmise, is how the focus and direction tends to go foul in so many celebrities to begin with]. This profession sent him to God-knows-where for months at a time shooting films. Big money involved in those, time deadlines, etc. One can't just take a week off to go do "family" across this ocean or that mountain. Pressure, then, must be exacted because he's a "good" father who is unable to be a very "present" one. BUT, he's rich and popular, yes? So that means the 'project is the thing' (and the ticket sales potential within it). So skip the in-attendance, purposeful father role (one I'm gathering Ledger venerated, too, based on unanimous reportage) and be a slick movie star. Pay the bills. Ensure a future for yourself (while "playing" a business that many many more people lose than even get close to making a living at). Good [high profile] provider, though. Just an absentee father. Throw in the constant public scrutiny and (we never knew the man privately, so speculation here is rather inclusive) he might have had countless issues going into this life under a microscope. I'm not sure about any of the rest, but I remember being 28. 38, for that matter. My plate was full and my plate was MUCH smaller than Ledger's was. And I remember often feeling VERY much too "young"/ill-equipped to juggle everything, some days . Is it any wonder these young celebrities have those same "juggling doubts". Times ten? We are overwhelmed at his 'status', his appeal. Heath? I see no reason to not suppose that he felt overwhelmed (in addition to everything else), many days, living up to that status.
Please know, too, that I am not attempting to defend the twentysomething millionaires whose lives go south. I find the Britneys, Lohans, even Robert Downey, Jr. (in the day) types self-indulgent, going every which way like chickens with no evidence of good sense like bats out of hell. I have a hunch that Ledger didn't fit into that mold (thus the shock of hearing both OF his death and then the details of it soon after). I get the distinct impression that he was just a pretty average bloke swept into some much bigger-than-average circumstances. Did he handle it all "right"? Absolutely not. Do I think he was "reckless"? What 28-year old isn't, more days than not. Especially when the recklessness is so accessible and not a budgetary problem. Do I think he wanted to die? I, for one, do not. But, again, I can't say that with certainty never having known the fellow. Can I say that I am relieved to remember his short life without having a stack of mental pictures of him in court facing DUI/drug/domestic violence charges? Or with wild hair and scary eyes in a mug shot or two? Or speaking weird British accents in gas stations buying home pregnancy tests? Um *yeah*, I can say that I'm relieved about that indeed.
I would not dare say (for sure) but the statement was made about "not having consideration for his fans" (not an exact quote there) as this whole tragedy befell. Being "selfish". Call me crazy, but I think some of the problem with him (and some, not all, of the other youngsters in the headlights) is that they maybe weren't selfish enough - in terms of putting their own definitions of what makes a person really happy, the "fame equation" out of the mix. There is, in my summation, a massive difference between being wildly self-indulgent and being peevishly selfish. One can often lead to the other, I know. But, somehow, the case of Heath Ledger doesn't sound like an example of both things being in place at once (or even separately, withut referring to anything beyond coroner's reports). To me, anyway.
But (as usual), that's just my opinion. I wasn't a "fan" of his, either, by the way. I caught glimpses of him in the occasional film on TV (but DID see his work, which was pretty darned spectacular from my seat, in "Brokeback"). To me, he was just a talented young guy. No more, no less. Given that, maybe I see all the rocks getting thrown (still) by the media a whole lot differently. I think, too, the only adjective I find worthy in his case is the word "deceased". All these other words? All they'll manage, really, is to make his baby daughter's birthright of having her own "fishbowl" in place even a bigger concern than it ought to be already. I just can't see much purpose in it.
Edited by Gatsby722 (Mon Feb 11 2008 07:49 AM)
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#407408 - Mon Feb 11 2008 01:43 PM
Re: Heath Ledger --- Dead?
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Star Poster
Registered: Sat Feb 10 2001
Posts: 18899
Loc: California USA
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As I know that many of us in this thread hail from the same generation and have all had friends or family who've battled addictions to drugs or alcohol who've either come through it unscathed or given in to it, I would think we'd all feel sadness at the passing of a young man who could be our child, as we would at the passing of any friend's child. I think we can muster up that much sympathy.
I also have known people of my generation who haven't made it through those struggles. I have known kids who've struggled or who are struggling and intimately. I've learned that it can happen to just about anyone from any social milieu. I've seen rich families and folks who were fighting to make a living and everyone in between. What any parent whose child is battling these demons needs is compassion. Not pity, not disdain, but compassion.
Now, I admit that it's harder to do for those who are manifesting their addictions with flailing calls for help like Britney et al. I feel sorry for her having been brought up into stardom and doing what comes best, making a public spectacle. I admit my bias is towards those who don't get hauled in for disgusting displays of temper or other things. However, in all honesty, those who were unable to express this might be in as much trouble as those who do not.
now, regardless of whether Heath Ledger used recreational drugs or not over time, I feel sympathy for his family and friends who must be thinking, 'if only we could have prevented this.' And the only one who could do that is gone. Maybe some of them are thinking that if only he'd become a civil servant or an auto mechanic he'd have survived, instead of becoming an actor. I know people who say things like that.
I also keep thinking how easy it is to get several prescriptions heaped on to us by doctors, take something from the pharmacy, be getting over something like cold or a flu, and if we aren't living with someone to help us with a reality check, slip into a pretty bad state. If we're emotionally fragile at that time, then, it's harder still. This is above and beyond any recreational drug use that might have gone on and which we really don't know.
I'm a sane individual last time I checked, and I've been so sick with asthma reactions before knowing that's what I had, and needing sleep that if I had not been extremely wary about prescription medication or OTC, I'd have required a hospital stay or worse. I also underwent major surgery after ignoring my body's messages for a few months. If I'm alert and informed and I can get into that state, then it could truly happen to anyone.
One of the articles I read said that we should look into our medicine cabinets and see what was there before we judged.
Agony's comments made me think about how one of the least helpful things to my mind in helping someone who's down is reminding them of how guilty they should feel about being down and how thankful they should be for having this that and the other thing. And when people heap on guilt to the families, it's not helpful either.
I always think of how fortunate I've been to have compassionate family and friends around when I needed them. Not everyone has those, or can admit their weaknesses to them when they need to.
anyway, I found it very fitting to see the friends swimming in a place he loved...it sounded very soothing and healing for them at such a sad time.
_________________________
I was born under a wandering star.
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