It is good to hear both candidates will meet with Bush regarding the economy.

chelseabelle,

Quote:

---

queproblema, if all Democrats are liberal, and left of the American center

---

First, no one on here or the description I put up from Wiki said that all Democrats are liberal. If you read it, it stated that: "Liberals form by far the largest and most influential ideological demographic within the party." Secondly, that was in my post and not queproblema's. If you wish to debate a point or comment, please contribute it to the correct poster.

Re the table put up on Family Income Growth and the statement: "all income groups have done better under Democratic presidents than Republican presidents--that is a fact."
I don't know how familiar you are with Larry Bartels (the compiler of the chart on income levels), his studies done at Princeton, and his excellent knowledge and theories of macroeconomics. That is but one look at one portion, chelsea, and is not taking into account many factors which would show figures quite the opposite depending on which study of his you are looking at. Of course I cannot and would not argue with the figures represented there, but there exists a whole world of factors in macroeconomics. Again, that is one chart, showing one representative result. I could also, but won't, put up many other charts showing a disparity not outlined there because it is one that doesn't account for economic growth overall, output, investments, pre-tax incomes, unemployment, or anything else.


As to your statement about McCain rushing to Washington even though he is not wanted or needed, it appears that as of today, both McCain and Obama are going there.
Associated Press - "Both were heading back to Washington on Thursday, summoned by President Bush to attend a White House meeting with congressional leaders in hopes of securing the legislation to rescue the fragile economy."

It makes sense to me that both candidates would have some involvement, whether voluntary or otherwise, in these proceedings, considering that one or the other will *inherit* whatever Legislation is put through.

The meeting with Bush was really just a photo-op--that Bush and McCain wanted to take place. Nothing was, or could have been, decided at that meeting. It made McCain look like he was part of the high level economic action going on, and that was it's purpose. Just like Sarah Palin's photo-op at the U.N. was designed to give the illusion she was involved in foreign policy. Obama didn't want to be there, he had to be there because Bush asked him to come.

If there is any point to McCain's being in Washington at the moment, it is to put pressure on the Republicans who are resisting aspects of Bush's plan. By resisting a Republican president, they are making McCain's campaign difficult at the moment, to say the least. It puts McCain between a rock and a hard place if he votes for the bill with conservative Republican opposition remaining for it.

So, McCain's function in Washington is political, in terms of dealing with his own party divisions and how they are affecting his campaign--McCain has nothing to do with working out the actual economic bail-out bill. He's not there to help rescue the economy. He's not rushing to Washington for the "sake of my country"--this is all for the sake of his campaign. McCain didn't even show up in Washington until this morning. The Democrats and Republicans were in better consensus before he showed up--his arrival may actually have been disruptive.

Both candidates have some involvement, as members of the Senate, but neither of them are directly involved in thrashing out the details of the bill. And working out the details of the bill should be kept quite apart from the presidential campaign--this bill is far too important to be used as a political football in a campaign. This legislation, whenever it passes, must have bipartisan backing. Both parties have a vested interest in what the next president will inherit, as well as what will happen with the economy in the next few months before a new president takes office. But, at the moment, the economic proposal must be thrashed out with the current Secretary of the Treasury (he's the one asking for the money and the one who will disperse it), and the candidates are really quite peripheral to the negoiations that have been going on, as they should be. The members of Congress are already under enough pressure to get very complex things worked out relatively quickly, they do not need the physical presence of the candidates creating unnecessary distractions.

But what McCain is doing by trying to stall tomorrow night's debate is shameful. His presence is not required in Washington tomorrow night at 9 o'clock. His continuing to maintain he will not appear tomorrow is outrageous. He is not only trying to dodge the debate at a time his poll numbers are going down, he wants it postponed to the night of the VP debate, so that one can be cancelled. He's trying to buy himself more time to prepare, and he's trying to buy Palin more time to prepare for her debate. Both McCain and Palin are apparently not prepared to be debate, judging by the stalling--but they want people to believe they are prepared to lead the country.

Leaders should not hide themselves from the public in times of crisis--if they are scheduled to appear at a debate, to help voters make a crucial decision about the next president, they should be obligated to appear at the debate. People who live in places that have early voting, and those who vote by absentee ballot, I think have already begun to vote--they are entitled to see these two men side by side discussing the issues.

McCain should cut the phony drama and the grandstanding and just show up tomorrow.

Chelsea, you seem to know a lot about McCain's motivations from the way you write about him?

All the assumptions as to what he is thinking all seem to be negative as well.

I have to admire McCain for not giving into the pressure of you have to do this or have to do that.

He makes his own decisions, based on what is best for the country.

BxBarracuda, that it is the conservative Republicans in the House that yesterday mounted the resistance to passage of an emergency economic bill is not an assumption, that's exactly what happened. They are bucking Bush and pressuring McCain to get what they want. The Senate Democrats and Republicans had apparently reached a general agreement yesterday.

If McCain backed the proposal that was being considered yesterday, the conservative wing of his party would have turned against him. That puts his election in jeopardity. McCain never opened his mouth yesterday about whether or not he supported that proposal because the conservatives put him on the ropes when they balked at passing it.

That's why everything got stalled after the meeting at the White House. Elements in McCain's own party have put him into a dilemma about what to do, and instead of helping the situation in Washington, McCain's presence has made matters worse because the conservatives decided to play hardball with him. They want McCain to get them what they want, and they are threatening his election--that's their leverage over him. Because he dramatically went running to Washington to save the day, the conservatives know they can make him look bad by not agreeing to a proposal. This is intra-party politics. This is why the presidential candidates should stay out of the negotiations in Washington--their presence, certainly McCain's presence, introduced an element that didn't need to be there. McCain is not part of the group actually negotiating the economic proposal with the Secretary of the Treasury--McCain is trying to do damage control within his own party, to save his own campaign. This political maneuvering has nothing to do with what is best for the country.

Quote:

---

He makes his own decisions, based on what is best for the country.

---

BxBarracuda, you are the one making an assumption about the motivations for McCain's decisions, by saying he makes them in the best interests of the country. Motivations are judged, not just on the basis of what people say, but the way they actually act. I backed up my thinking about McCain by looking at his behavior in the context of what is actually going on in Washington, and how McCain has acted since he arrived there yesterday. He has sat in on no negotiations, he made no substantive statements at that White House meeting yesterday, and has not even said anything about the economic proposal he would support. How, judging by his behavior in Washington, is McCain doing anything to help the country at the moment? Can you answer that question, BxBarracuda, by telling me what McCain is actually doing in Washington right now that shows he went there to help the country?

I obviously have been following events very closely. My opinions are not based on hunches, they are based on my own analysis of the information that's out there. I'm certainly entitled to analyze things as I see fit, and I'm entitled to draw my own conclusions, including my conclusions about McCain's motivations. You are free to disagree with me, but if you want me to seriously consider what you are saying, you have to back it up with some objective information and put it in the context of what is actually going on in Washington.

How is McCain helping the country by being in Washington right now? I'm willing to be convinced, I just haven't heard any evidence to back up that assertion.

Now McCain is saying he can go to the debate because the negotiations are making progress. But the negotiations were making progress before he got to Washington--they stalled after he showed up. The Senate Democrats and Republicans were in general accord before McCain got there. McCain is trying to take credit for something he was not part of. In fact, if McCain had voiced support for the proposal they had yesterday, all of this would probably have ended yesterday with a definite bill on the table with only the final details to be hammered out. They had enough people backing the proposal to get it approved--but they would have had a bloody battle in the House from the small group of fiscal conservative Republicans who are bucking Bush--they are fundamentally opposed to the proposal. They are fighting their own president. No one wanted that kind of fight taking place. Everyone wants the final proposal to reflect as much bipartisan agreement as possible--so the public can support it and have some confidence in it. Everyone is working toward that end, and they have been working toward that end before McCain showed up in Washington.

This is the statement McCain's spokesman just released:

Quote:

---

“The difference between Barack Obama and John McCain was apparent during the White House meeting yesterday where Barack Obama’s priority was political posturing in his opening monologue defending the package as it stands,” said the McCain campaign statement.

“John McCain listened to all sides so he could help focus the debate on finding a bipartisan resolution that is in the interest of taxpayers and homeowners. The Democratic interests stood together in opposition to an agreement that would accommodate additional taxpayer protections.”

---

The problem with the above statement is that it's untrue. Yesterday's proposal, that was discussed at the White House meeting, was a bipartisan agreement--it had bipartisan support in the Senate. Obama, at the White House meeting simply presented the Democratic position on the proposal--Pelosi, who normally would have been the one to do that at such a meeting, simply deferred to Obama and she allowed him to present the Democratic party position. Both the Republicans and the Democrats wanted taxpayer protections in the proposal--the Democrats were not opposed to that. That's why both Democrats and Republicans challenged Paulson's initial proposal--it didn't have enough taxpayer protection.

And McCain made no substantive statements at the White House meeting yesterday, he mainly just sat there, exhibiting no leadership. Perhaps that's why McCain can't tell us about anything he actually said at that meeting--he was mainly silent.He did not voice any bipartisan solutions. He did not voice any solutions. He didn't focus the debate--he didn't even enter the debate, according to the people who were actually in the room. He admitted he hadn't even read the proposal. And he was the one who wanted the meeting to be held.

But now McCain is distorting the facts of yesterday to facillitate his own campaign and trying to make himself look like some sort of hero. He is using an unprecedented economic crisis in our country to advance his own ends of trying to get himself elected--even if it involves not telling the American people the truth about what went on and his own behavior. This is partisan politics at it's most shameful. The Democrats aren't the ones holding things up, it's a faction of the Republican party, fighting a Republican president's proposal, that is creating the discord that's dragging this out. Mainstream Republicans and Democrats seem to have ironed out their major differences on the proposal.

I am sick of Bush's distortions and lies, and I am sick of McCain's distortions and lies. If McCain cared about the country, more than he cares about his own campaign, he would want people to have the truth, and he would want people to have confidence that our government is working in a united way to hammer out the best possible economic proposal--that's how you help to prevent panic in an economic crisis. Thats what a real leader would do. Instead, McCain is trying to stir up more partisan bickering to serve his own ends and make himself look good.

People who find McCain's tactics and posturing impressive should vote for him. I wouldn't vote for him for dogcatcher.
But I am glad that McCain finally stopped being childish and decided to show up for tonight's debate. He would have made a complete fool of himself if he was a no-show. I look forward to hearing the debate.

I've purposely paused about Palin because I don't wish to sound as though I'm shoving my own views down anyone's throat. I certainly would not do that. But I have to say that the appearance with Couric did not change my views and in fact, support seems to be slipping a bit even on conservative websites and blogs out there. Because of the nature of the internet, where you can comment on any news item or Youtube video below it, reactions are rapid and off the cuff and shooting from the hip.

One of the most common responses to Palin's answers to Couric is, well, compassion. Many people, like myself, don't get a thrill out of seeing someone so out of place put in that position. I know that she accepted it but I don't think she knew what she was getting into. Time and time again the word 'cringe' came up. Many commentators observed that she was like someone who went unprepared to an exam and tried to wiggle their way out of it, but failed.
Even the most conservative blogs out there are seeing comments about how Palin performed this task and the only defense that anyone seems to be able to come up with is that it's the vile media that's leftist. Yet, some of the commentators are honest enough to say that Hannity was Fox and after all, they're to the right. Or another defense that I'm seeing was that Obama or Biden or Clinton or whomever did this or that in an interview, so these comments are because Palin's an outsider, not an Ivy League bigwig East Coast establishment person.
I tried to approach the interview with as wide a mind humanly possible and I find that there's no stretch of the imagination possible for me to accept Palin as a viable candidate. I'm sad about that because, if McCain were ever to win, I'd have to live with that choice at the head of my government. I have to face that eventuality as a US citizen.

We'll all have to live together when this is over after all. I know that I always self correct for the use of 'our' and 'we' as I like to include my international friends, so I mean we. One of my professional sites has people of every persuasion but they are just plain rude and dismissive of anyone who says anything about the elections who is not eligible to vote in them. I think this is very unwise. Many people who are not eligible to vote show more concern for the procedure and knowledge than those in the States who do not bother to vote. I believe only 50 percent of eligible voters bother. In other places in the world, people die for this right. In fact, we're often told that soldiers die for our freedom, therefore, if we don't vote, we have only ourselves to blame. I know this is not the case in this group but I have always appreciated the world view that we have here. I don't take that for granted.

So for many, Palin's appeal is waning. I can only find staunch conservative commentators backing her up. Many of the blogs, even Christian conservatives, are finally saying that she's just not ready. She's intelligent and willing to try, but she's not the right one for the job. I suppose that for others, there are reasons to stay with the ship. I do not fault them.

Only the staunch conservative blogs are holding up hope for McCain now. I've seen the 'best for our country' objection to criticism of McCain's move to stop the campaign or postpone the debate. I've also seen the 'he's making a brilliant move here. It's all part of his strategy', but, his support seems to be waning too.

I'm also hearing less and less about the MSM in the aftermath of the recent interviews. I mean the term 'mainstream media' or Rush's term 'drive by media'. I've even seen some brave souls speaking up about Couric's interview with Obama being just as 'tough' as the one with Palin. I do not doubt that the media leans to the left in general, but, honestly, with the resources we have at our fingertips online, can anyone really say they are left out of a way of self expression and finding like minded individuals? Can anyone really think that the TV reporters really sway anyone that much anymore?

I'm seeing a great deal of damage to the USA in terms of getting along. It's polarized both camps until, even when there is compelling news one way or another, things have gotten so ugly they can't look at the other's point of view without nasty remarks like 'you've drunk the Kool Aid' or you're just a naive sheep etc. I know that banter is normal in an election year, but, this is more.
In some way I'm relieved that people are finally making comments about how poor the performance was from the McCain Palin team on the right. I am not saying that Obama is the end all be all candidate, nor have I ever. And Biden's out there just a gaffe machine, but, in his defense, he's been out there getting himself into trouble, because he's actually out there. Palin on the other hand was sheltered for awhile.

I'm looking forward to hearing the debates tonight and wondering if like in the previous interviews, we'll hear the cries of leftist media etc. I just wish they'd let Fox do it, but that might not be enough just now.

I want to reiterate that I would not criticize anyone's choice of candidate for the sake of nit picking. That's a Democracy after all, but if I were leaning towards McCain, his choice of Palin and his rushing to Washington would concern me. I could not justify this with benefit of the doubt anymore. After all, what I've seen of Palin is what I've been allowed to see. No one kept her from the press but her own team.

Chelsea, not everything gets done in Washington at scheduled meetings. Much is done behind the scenes, with one politician talking to another, and swaying their votes. If it is the conservatives which are holding up the bill from passing, there is no better place for McCain to be then talking to them, and helping get the bill passed.

McCain is not a spotlight grabber, which doesn't mean he isn't working. Giving media sound bites doesn't get things done. Working behind the scenes does.

There are opinons and assumptions when it comes to politics. Assumptions take a much bigger leap as to what the actions of someone might mean, and can thus be further from the truth.

On another note, to me Palin is not the seling point for their ticket, it is McCain himself. If I chose to vote for McCain, it will be because of him. If we survived four years with Dan Quayle as the Vice President, we can with Palin.

chelseabelle,
Forgive my confusion, but would you please make up your mind on a few statements you have made and then completely nullified within a day? First you state that:

Quote:

---

The meeting with Bush was really just a photo-op--that Bush and McCain wanted to take place. Nothing was, or could have been, decided at that meeting. It made McCain look like he was part of the high level economic action going on, and that was it's purpose.
Obama didn't want to be there, he had to be there because Bush asked him to come.

---

You then turn around today and blame McCain alone for nothing being settled:

Quote:

---

In fact, if McCain had voiced support for the proposal they had yesterday, all of this would probably have ended yesterday with a definite bill on the table with only the final details to be hammered out.

---

Which one is it? Either he had no reason and business being there or, he was there as a key voice in coming to an agreement. It doesn't seem to matter what the man does, it doesn't play out to your way of thinking.

Quote:

---

Obama, at the White House meeting simply presented the Democratic position on the proposal--Pelosi, who normally would have been the one to do that at such a meeting, simply deferred to Obama and she allowed him to present the Democratic party position.

---

And you do not see that as a campaign maneuver by the Democrats? Come on. If that same scenario had played out with McCain presenting the Republican party position, you would have been all over it.

(Edited to add the following-)

I just did some checking and Obama was not completely familiar with the Economic Proposal either. He was handed a Cliff-Notes type rundown on what to say by Pelosi's people before the meeting. I realize this will most likely make no difference, but again, I am trying to look at this with a somewhat open mind. I have done no unwarranted blasting of Obama or Biden.

This is getting a bit heated. We 'don't do' controversial any more, orders from above. So perhaps time to close.