#468371 - Tue Apr 21 2009 02:23 PM
Re: Vulgarity and obscenity around the world
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Enthusiast
Registered: Tue Jun 24 2008
Posts: 427
Loc: Sussex England UK
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Because my mother told me to. And she was taught by her mother...I feel a song coming on. " Why do we do it? I don't know, but it's a tradition." Here's another thread on the same subject http://ask.metafilter.com/95585/I-eat-my-peas-with-honey
Edited by Jabberwok (Tue Apr 21 2009 02:31 PM)
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#468373 - Tue Apr 21 2009 02:41 PM
Re: Vulgarity and obscenity around the world
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Administrator
Registered: Sun Dec 19 1999
Posts: 38004
Loc: Jersey
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We just do, I don't personally eat peas but you even eat those from the back of your fork.  I find the American way bizarre, constantly changing hands, we normally keep hold of both the knife and the fork. Then for pudding we use a spoon and fork. When using a knife and fork the right-handed person has the knife in their right hand and eats from the fork in their left hand, but puddings are eaten still with the fork in the left hand but you eat off the spoon in your right hand. If pudding is cake then you might just use a fork.
Edited by sue943 (Tue Apr 21 2009 02:43 PM)
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#468376 - Tue Apr 21 2009 02:46 PM
Re: Vulgarity and obscenity around the world
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Star Poster
Registered: Sat Feb 10 2001
Posts: 18899
Loc: California USA
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My children still eat the French way and as we don't eat out much here in the States, I'm sure that when they do, they pass for eccentric or very well brought up.
If you don't shake hands or give the bise (air kiss) to people you know when you first see them on a given day, you'll pass for a real impolite person in France. At the very least, you greet the neighbor with bonjour Madame or monsieur.
I was always startled to have surly adolescents coming up to me in France and greeting me as they knew my children and if they didn't, they'd hear about it later.
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#468377 - Tue Apr 21 2009 02:50 PM
Re: Vulgarity and obscenity around the world
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Star Poster
Registered: Sat May 03 2008
Posts: 17092
Loc: Orosi Costa Rica
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Re the tines up/tines down. I was brought up in England, and we would get a smack if we ever ate tines up. The trick there is to use the knife to push, say, mashed pototoes onto the back of the fork, then again using the knife, scoop some peas on. The fork, thus loaded, goes in the mouth tines down, with the food balanced on top. It's an art. Thank goodness in Canada, and here too, the food is loaded onto the fork tines up and eaten that way. I must say, it's a lot easier. I never did get into the hand changing thing, and still eat with my fork in my left hand, rather than changing it over to my right.
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#468378 - Tue Apr 21 2009 02:52 PM
Re: Vulgarity and obscenity around the world
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Administrator
Registered: Sun Dec 19 1999
Posts: 38004
Loc: Jersey
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There is a fair amount of bise here too, then we were part of France years ago.
Eating pudding with a spoon and fork, you hold down the food with the fork and break some off with the spoon, or push food onto the spoon with the fork. Ice cream however is normally eaten just with a spoon, and often a small spoon at that.
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#468379 - Tue Apr 21 2009 02:57 PM
Re: Vulgarity and obscenity around the world
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Enthusiast
Registered: Tue Jun 24 2008
Posts: 427
Loc: Sussex England UK
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Decades ago, I studied social psychology. One of the things we had to do was set up and observe experiments, and an interesting one involved cultural concepts of personal space.
So you'd have an Englishman talking to a Brazilian male student. One would keep edging forwards, as his 'space' was around 14". The other would edge backwards, as he felt invaded if someone 'unknown' got closer that 24" So you'd observe a sort of slow dance effect over 10 minutes.
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#468380 - Tue Apr 21 2009 02:57 PM
Re: Vulgarity and obscenity around the world
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Star Poster
Registered: Sat May 03 2008
Posts: 17092
Loc: Orosi Costa Rica
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Elbows on the table or not? Never, in England! In Canada though, it is not considered bad manners to have one elbow on the table while talking, as long as there is no food on the table. As soon as the food arrives, everyone takes their elbows off the table.
I didn't consciously realize we did this until I was in Colombia. I asked a friend if it was bad manners to be seen smoking in public. He said not at all. Then he paused, and said "May I say something?" "Sure!" It was then he told me that in Colombia, one never puts ones elbows on the table, food or no food. It was something the kids and I had to be conscious of the rest of the trip, as in our culture we were used to subconsciously sitting with one elbow on the table while chatting, when no food was there. In Colombia however, that is the height of bad manners.
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#468382 - Tue Apr 21 2009 03:09 PM
Re: Vulgarity and obscenity around the world
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Star Poster
Registered: Sat May 03 2008
Posts: 17092
Loc: Orosi Costa Rica
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Ahhh, the kissy thing.  In Costa Rica, when you meet someone for the first time, you don't kiss... until you say goodbye, then you both kiss on the right cheek at the same time. Upon meeting someone for the second or more time, one ALWAYS gives the kiss upon meeting and saying goodbye - it is considered standoffish and rude not to. It took me a little while to get used to this, especially from men I didn't really know that well.
Edited by MadMags (Tue Apr 21 2009 03:11 PM)
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#468383 - Tue Apr 21 2009 03:14 PM
Re: Vulgarity and obscenity around the world
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Moderator
Registered: Mon Jul 09 2007
Posts: 41461
Loc: Ottawa Ontario Canada
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Quote:
Decades ago, I studied social psychology. One of the things we had to do was set up and observe experiments, and an interesting one involved cultural concepts of personal space.
So you'd have an Englishman talking to a Brazilian male student. One would keep edging forwards, as his 'space' was around 14". The other would edge backwards, as he felt invaded if someone 'unknown' got closer that 24" So you'd observe a sort of slow dance effect over 10 minutes.
Ah yes, I studied stuff like this too in a couple of my sociology classes. We learned all kinds of fun stuff to do that would make other people uncomfortable. Such, if you board an elevator with another person or two (that you don't know, you are not 'with' them) and face them. Don't outright stare, but stand facing the back of the elevator. Totally violates the 'stand silently and look at up at the numbers' social norm for elevators.
This is a very informative thread. I now know to carefully choose what I will eat should I ever be dining with the Queen (or anyone in the UK, I suppose ), since I can't eat things on the back of my fork. I've just tried with rice. Didn't work.
Edited by guitargoddess (Tue Apr 21 2009 03:14 PM)
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#468384 - Tue Apr 21 2009 05:32 PM
Re: Vulgarity and obscenity around the world
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Mainstay
Registered: Thu Dec 28 2006
Posts: 930
Loc: Carson City
Nevada USA
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Thanks for the visuals, Denni and Jabberwok! Very interesting indeed! I do eat with my fork in my left, and knife in right, if it's a cutting up thing, like steak. It seems silly to keep putting the knife down, and trading the fork.  I have seen, (I think) a man sort of 'wiping' food onto the back of a fork with his knife. Could that be what we're talking about? I think it was in a movie... 
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#468385 - Tue Apr 21 2009 05:38 PM
Re: Vulgarity and obscenity around the world
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Administrator
Registered: Sun Dec 19 1999
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Loc: Jersey
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#468387 - Tue Apr 21 2009 09:10 PM
Re: Vulgarity and obscenity around the world
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Moderator
Registered: Thu Sep 30 1999
Posts: 12593
Loc: Kowloon Tong Hong Kong
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O my goodness, Poor Denni! I hope you are not going to have etiquette lessons from Emily Post every morning of your visit. (Just shovel it in love, she cannot hit you THAT hard) Quote:
I've just tried with rice. Didn't work.
GG you need chopsticks for that.
Talking of chopsticks, you never point with them and you lay them on the stand straight not crossed when you are not eating.
There are millions of wrong things to do here. Don't touch anyones head. Don't beckon with the finger pointing up always down (and the whole hand is best)You do not point at anyone directly)
You can ask how much a gift was, and how much someone earns. You can tell someone they are fat.
I make mistakes all the time even after 30 odd years.
All of the good manners stories I have read here I agree with (about the British way) I was brought up with very strict eating habits, you NEVER cut a roll or bread at the table, you always use a butter knife (My mum said that the sign of a lady was she used the butter knife and marmalade spoon even when alone!), and countless other things mentioned here. Use a table napkin and ring when a resident, but crumple it and lay it on the table if a one off visitor.put a little salt on the edge of the plate. NEVER use the fork in the right hand . I could go on and on!
Children always wait to be told to leave the table, even for one drink and biscuit. Push your chair in. Cut cake into small pieces first.These are written into my skull!
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#468388 - Tue Apr 21 2009 09:31 PM
Re: Vulgarity and obscenity around the world
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Forum Adept
Registered: Wed Jul 23 2008
Posts: 140
Loc: Hamler Ohio USA
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And never, ever come to the table shirtless!
I can still feel my grandmother pulling on my ear for that one.
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#468389 - Tue Apr 21 2009 11:00 PM
Re: Vulgarity and obscenity around the world
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Enthusiast
Registered: Fri Feb 13 2009
Posts: 292
Loc: New York USA
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Even though, as an anthropologist, I'm supposed to be all "culturally relevant" (and mostly do pretty well I hope) - there are still things here in New York that bug my Western Canadian upbringing. One thing that drives me crazy is men (and occasionally women) spitting in the street. I couldn't tell you which cultures this is okay in (there are several), but it's very common here, whereas at home it was considered "dirty." There's also a casual rudeness here - especially in the service industry - that you would never get in Western Canada. It can be very hard to get personnel to talk to you and, when they do, it's as if they are surprised you're there. This is so common that I think it's a cultural, rather than individual, thing - New York culture, anyway. What's interesting to me is how my friends who grew up here react to the kind of service culture in Canada. Their claim is that it makes them nervous to have people smile, come up to them and ask if they need help, etc. They see this as being 'false' - somehow inauthentic - and intrusive. I can see that side of it too, and try to not hit the red button when someone ignores me when I ask for their assistance. But no matter how much training you get, there are things that are going to get to you. As to the knife/fork issue - I'm a Canadian hybrid. I eat most food like an American (switch fork to right hand), but eat meat the "British" way (knife in right, fork in left, tines down) thanks to my Scottish grandfather Very interesting thread... Y
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#468390 - Wed Apr 22 2009 12:15 AM
Re: Vulgarity and obscenity around the world
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Forum Champion
Registered: Sun Jun 16 2002
Posts: 5337
Loc: Nijmegen/Brisbane
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In the Netherlands, when you meet someone for the first time you shake hands, regardless of the gender of the two people involved. Once you know them a bit better, you move on to three kisses (or two, in some parts of the country), as long as one of the two people involved is a woman.
From what I noticed, Australians don't shake hands much. I had a job interview and was pretty offended when the man I had the interview with didn't bother shaking my hand. And the hugs! Every time I was introduced to someone, they'd hug me! It made me feel very uncomfortable, having all these complete strangers hugging me! I wouldn't appreciate it if my friends did that every time I met them, let alone people I have never seen before!
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#468391 - Wed Apr 22 2009 01:08 AM
Re: Vulgarity and obscenity around the world
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Prolific
Registered: Sun Jun 24 2007
Posts: 1178
Loc: California USA
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I just came across this thread and find it very intriguing. Have a few points/anecdotes to make. First off, my mother is German so I was raised with certain table manner standards. I think some of you non-US residents might be shocked (or maybe not in the slightest) but you'd be lucky to find a single individual here in the States that does NOT have their elbow on the table, shoveling food in. I haven't met one yet. Tough for me with some women because I shudder at the thought of bringing them home solely just due to that habit. I don't want to come across prissy (because, believe me, I'm anything but) but it IS sad to see how many people in this country are just completely clueless about just basic manners. Oh well. One of these days. Now, one other topic Leau alluded to. Here in the US, in my generation, it is pretty customary among your contemporaries to do a "bro shake". Varies among places, but usual method is a hand slap, slide, and fist pound. I know some of my friends in Australia do it also but that's also likely due to US exposure. Do they do that across the world? Strictly among friends or among acquaintances surfing/skating/snowboarding. However, to my utmost horror, I have caught myself doing that to one of my bosses just out of force of habit. Knew what I was doing halfway through, but unable to stop. Absolute horror. All I could do was an uneasy laugh and try to crack a joke. It was all good but definitely a bit embarrassing! Probably other things to add as I think about them... BTW, interesting about the tines on the fork down. Seems very odd! But I can't talk since I also do the fork switcheroo. I know to use the left hand for the fork in Europe just from travel and such. But never heard about that one before! Is that strictly a UK custom? Interesting! Granted, this is the US... I went to a prestigious high school but yet... let's just say there were better manners going down in The Lord of the Flies! Forget knowing what fork to use, even if there was only one on the table!  Sorry if I threw too much in my post there! So many interesting things people touched on, hard not to address everything!
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#468393 - Wed Apr 22 2009 02:22 AM
Re: Vulgarity and obscenity around the world
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Prolific
Registered: Sun Jun 24 2007
Posts: 1178
Loc: California USA
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Quote:
We have always eaten the "British" way here in Oz, that is fork in left hand, tines facing down, food pierced with tines, then lifted into mouth, all with the left hand while the knife is held in the right hand. Meats etc are held in place with the fork and pieces cut with the knife, then lifted with the LEFT hand, still with tines facing downward, to the mouth. Having the tines up used to be considered bad manners and acceptable for the very young only, as they had not yet developed the required fine-motor skills to balance food on a fork properly. The constant changing of the fork from one hand to the other seems a lot of hard work just to get a bite to eat.
This is interesting! Not trying to dis whatsoever in the slightest but, even when you keep the fork in the same hand, you don't flip the tines over when eating?
Sorry if I sound rude here - this is something I haven't heard before. Like I said earlier, my mother was from northern Germany (and not exactly low class either!), this is something new to me! Eating with the tines down...
I apologize for my ignorance but are your forks more straight-lined than curved to make this doable. Just seems hard to balance some food on a convex, tined, surface! Like I said, pardon my ignorance! This is a completely new concept to me!
Does this hold with things like mashed potatoes, peas, corn, etc.?
BTW, this exemplifies why I LOVE this site - so many interesting insights from across the globe. Believe me, you mention in the US (just watch ANY/EVERY US TV for example) anything beyond eating with your elbow on the table shoveling food in your mouth, you're going to get blank stares and accusations of prissiness. Sad as it is, it's true. America is to table manners what Antarctica is to military power. Or cactus.
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#468394 - Wed Apr 22 2009 02:25 AM
Re: Vulgarity and obscenity around the world
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Forum Champion
Registered: Mon Apr 14 2003
Posts: 8867
Loc: France
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I too, have been brought up to eat everything off the fork 'tines down'. There is a knack to it, but it's second nature to kids from a pretty young age, once the habit is reinforced. I think I need to specify that my earlier post was definitely referring to 'comfortable, casual friendly dinner party' situations, or meals with the in-laws, ( not formal, work, or other more public affairs), where table manners are way more relaxed than what I'd be used to under similar circumstances back home. On the 'kissy' thing, I was shocked on my first day at work in France to be greeted by a handshake by every single member of the personnel, and as the weeks went by to see that handshake develop into a kiss from everybody except the director of the company. Whoa! At home you'd be lucky to get a handshake on your first day from your immediate co-workers and a grunted 'hi' in the morning when you arrive thereafter! Definitely made me feel very ill at ease, particularly during the stage where I received kisses from some colleagues and handshakes form others. Pause before greeting (on my part) to remember if the person I was helloing was a handshaker or a kisser. Just getting to your seat in the office and greeting your colleagues can take up to half an hour here ... then it's time for a coffee break!  As I work at the reception desk I get to greet every single person who comes in, and even the postman has a handshake every morning for me. It does take some getting used to! This, I hasten to add, is not the case in 100% of the companies here, many limit the greeting to a simple handshake and kisses in the office are unheard of, except for good friends. Another cultural thing that I found odd at first was that on entering any small shop or establishment, doctor's waiting room, or other public area you immediately say 'Bonjour Monsieurs-Dames' as a general greeting to anybody else who may be waiting there already. I find it very polite!
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#468395 - Wed Apr 22 2009 03:32 AM
Re: Vulgarity and obscenity around the world
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Administrator
Registered: Sun Dec 19 1999
Posts: 38004
Loc: Jersey
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I was at a party recently, a large one with a sit down meal in a restaurant. The people at my table were all known to me but nevertheless I was almost shocked at the woman next to me (not a close friend, just someone that I know) helped herself to food from my plate. It was food that she could see that I wasn't going to eat but it really is extremely bad manners to do that. If it was a family member/partner then it is more acceptable and some people share food for instance ordering different desserts then sharing, that is quite different. She didn't even ask, she just helped herself and it wasn't as if I had finished eating!
I must say that the same woman asked some extremely personal questions and was about the nosiest person I have met since my late mother-in-law. One thing I had mentioned to her was that I was going out to dinner the following evening too, another party, and that was to be in a particular apartment block. She asked me how much my friend paid in service charges - how very odd, it certainly isn't something that I would know, I wouldn't dream of asking anyone that sort of question.
Edited by sue943 (Wed Apr 22 2009 03:33 AM)
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