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#612189 - Mon Apr 04 2011 10:15 PM Re: Foreign language quiz questions
kyleisalive Online   FT-cool
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Registered: Mon Mar 07 2005
Posts: 7995
Loc: Toronto, Canada, eh!
Rich, Fred, and others: what is it about these particular questions that makes them unappealing for the dailies, hourlies, and quizzes in general?

Shuehorn specified question/answer length, but from what I gather this isn't what had you guys concerned.

Do you feel that they have no relevance or purpose on a predominantly-English-speaking site?
Are the questions/quizzes written in a poor quality?
Do you feel that there's nothing to gain from knowing the origins of languages, important figures of speech, etc. for any player?

On the other page, Fred specifically regarded them as 'translating questions'. Perhaps if you were to consider them less as translations and more of vocabulary questions, a shift in perspective would be made. I've always considered the Absurd French quizzes (for instance) to be a test of what French I know, and not about how much French I can translate. Usually, if I know one or two keywords common in the French language (many of which have common spellings and variations across several languages, including English) I can get it, but you need to know what to look for.

Would anyone please elaborate on the specific problems with them? This way we can improve on future language quizzes (or at least I can specifically).


Edited by kyleisalive (Mon Apr 04 2011 10:17 PM)
Edit Reason: Spelling error.
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#612238 - Tue Apr 05 2011 06:19 AM Re: Foreign language quiz questions
rossian Online   content
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Registered: Sat Jun 10 2006
Posts: 3404
Loc: Merseyside UK
Having just had a 'state flower' question in a geography quiz, I would certainly rather have had a language question. I don't consider anything about state trees or animals to be anything to do with geography, but that's a personal opinion. I could make a very long list of the types of question I don't like but the only way to get rid of them would be to set up my own website and I have no plans on doing that. I'm another great fan of Bruyere's French quizzes and don't have a problem with having a go at any language question. At least I feel I have some chance, whereas knowing where an American sportsman I've never heard of went to college is impossible. It's the variety of questions and interests which make the site so addictive.
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#612253 - Tue Apr 05 2011 07:25 AM Re: Foreign language quiz questions
Pagiedamon Offline
Moderator

Registered: Sun Jun 15 2008
Posts: 2592
Loc: North Carolina USA
Originally Posted By: rossian
I don't consider anything about state trees or animals to be anything to do with geography, but that's a personal opinion.



Authors are allowed a few questions that aren't strictly about geography if they relate to the theme.


Edited by Pagiedamon (Tue Apr 05 2011 07:30 AM)

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#612269 - Tue Apr 05 2011 09:48 AM Re: Foreign language quiz questions
dg_dave Offline
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Registered: Sun Oct 05 2003
Posts: 23616
Loc: near Stafford, VirginiaUSA
I think things are fine as they are. The foreign language quizzes will help me learn a bit about other languages, and we really can't appeal to everyone. I know nothing about cricket (except the insect) but will try and guess on a question regarding the sport. When it comes to French, I can say "please" and "thank you" and a few other words. I know nothing about games like World of Warcraft and Resident Evil, but know quite a bit about the original Mario series (i.e. Super Mario Bros., Super Mario Bros. 2, etc.). It's my choice whether I play any video game, not someone else's.

What is trivia to one person may not be to someone else, and I think the fact that we have 20 different categories to choose from, there *should* be one category that most everyone is more prolific. Now, I'm not a major video game aficionado like Kyle nor am I a fluent French speaker like Bruyere, but it's more about what we can learn than what we can scan and answer correctly. What do you learn when you click and scroll...especially if you already know the answer? Maybe you get the self-satisfaction that you got the answer right, but how you arrived at it is where the main point is. That is yet another reason there are "googleable" quizzes and speed quizzes...Terry is trying his best to appeal to the majority of people, but it is an impossible task to please everyone. Someone is always going to say they are at a disadvantage, but if you look at it from a different persective, maybe you are at that same disadvantage in something else. Can you tell me how many strikeouts Nolan Ryan had without looking it up? What about how many overs a cricketeer had? I could go on with any and all main categories here, but by the time I'd finish, I'd be beating a dead horse.

All of the timed games anymore are becoming more a matter of speed than quality, and while I enjoy competition, it's become an "I'm faster than you" type of game, and it's no longer fun. This site is called "FunTrivia" for a reason...to have fun.


Edited by dg_dave (Tue Apr 05 2011 01:41 PM)
Edit Reason: typo...don't know how I missed it!
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#612346 - Tue Apr 05 2011 01:27 PM Re: Foreign language quiz questions
ladymacb29 Offline
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Registered: Wed Mar 15 2000
Posts: 15905
Loc: The Delta Quadrant
I hope the authors of the quizzes that contain the questions some of you object to don't stop creating such quizzes and questions simply because some object. It's not right for the authors of these quizzes (who have done absolutely nothing wrong) to feel as though they are being attacked simply because some people do not like the topic.

We've had so many other threads like this over the years where people have complained about American-centricity of the questions, sports question, professional wrestling questions, etc - all of which require a certain knowledge base in order to correctly answer.

Terry's response has always been that it's fair because everyone is similarly handicapped as they receive the same types of questions and if you don't like how many questions on one topic show up, submit some that you do like in that category.

Everyone has topics they are not comfortable answering - should we all ask that such topics be removed from the quizzes simply because of that? By the definition given, physics is not trivia - and because I last took a physics class in 1998, I'm not very strong in it. Does that mean I should complain about physics questions and/or penalize the quizzes/authors for such? No.

Using the definition given for trivia, we'd have very few questions in the quizzes left to play and the quizzes would be very boring with the same questions.


Edited by ladymacb29 (Tue Apr 05 2011 01:27 PM)
Edit Reason: adding last paragraph
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#612541 - Tue Apr 05 2011 07:54 PM Re: Foreign language quiz questions
richicago Offline
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Registered: Fri Feb 07 2003
Posts: 12
Loc: Chicago IllinoisUSA
I certainly have the right to avoid quizzes I do not wish to play, such as language translation quizzes. My problem comes when they are pulled out of their original quizzes and placed in hourly or daily games. I play these quizzes both to win and to learn. I can do neither in this situation. Whether I like these quizzes or not is really not the point. It's whether a lot of players feel the same as I do. -richicago-

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#612556 - Tue Apr 05 2011 09:17 PM Re: Foreign language quiz questions
jmorrow Offline
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Registered: Wed Oct 08 2008
Posts: 1459
Loc: Singapore
Quote:
I certainly have the right to avoid quizzes I do not wish to play, such as language translation quizzes.

That's a nice sentiment, but the thing is, you're not avoiding them. You are going out of your way to play them and rate them "very poor", which isn't really fair to the original author of the quiz, who had no part in pulling these questions for use in the daily or hourly games.

I'm effectively monolingual myself, so I can't say that I particularly enjoy foreign language questions in the daily or hourly games. However, I do not begrudge any of the authors of such quizzes from writing them. I also don't think that they should be removed from the dailies or hourlies simply because I can't answer them or wouldn't learn anything from them, as they are no different from any other question on a topic that I know nothing about, or in which I have no interest.

Rich, I have nothing but respect for your opinion on this matter, and I'm just giving you mine. I love the broad nature of the site, and agree with ladymacb that adopting a narrow definition of what constitutes 'trivia' would limit and ultimately hurt the site. If that means that I can't win a daily or hourly game because I don't know the answer, or have no interest in some questions, then so be it.

I think it was an ex-member of my team who once said that Fun Trivia is like a marriage, and you must learn to take the good with the bad. I would urge everyone concerned to heed this advice.

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#612557 - Tue Apr 05 2011 09:20 PM Re: Foreign language quiz questions
dg_dave Offline
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Registered: Sun Oct 05 2003
Posts: 23616
Loc: near Stafford, VirginiaUSA
Originally Posted By: richicago
My problem comes when they are pulled out of their original quizzes and placed in hourly or daily games. I play these quizzes both to win and to learn. I can do neither in this situation.


The more quality World quizzes there are, the less likely a foreign language quiz question will pop up, as the question pool is larger...a language question can still pop up, though. As for not learning something, you can once you click Submit. That is one requirement I am glad exists here...it didn't when I originally signed on over ten years ago.

Originally Posted By: richicago
Whether I like these quizzes or not is really not the point. It's whether a lot of players feel the same as I do.


I will agree that language quizzes may be geared to specific people. Can anyone say what the scientific name of a dragonfly is without looking it up? I last took a biology class 18 years ago, and I couldn't tell you what that is without googling it. I can, however, tell you when Pluto was originally named...it was in 1930. Both of these examples are science related. I would say that a majority of people can tell me what "merci beaucoup" and "danke schoen" both mean, no, not everyone will, and I don't expect everyone to (if I've misspelled then in their respective language, apologies to the French and Germans).

I think people who are specialized in whatever field they are specialized in should write quizzes about that subject, even if 95% of the members may not have a clue what it is. I use a signature line from a profilic author: "Your quiz score is not important. What you learned from the quiz is." On the flipside, the questions get shuffled around and in a daily/hourly, the same question may pop up two or three straight times...it's all random.

Originally Posted By: jmorrow
I think it was an ex-member of my team who once said that Fun Trivia is like a marriage, and you must learn to take the good with the bad. I would urge everyone concerned to heed this advice.


I completely agree.


Edited by dg_dave (Tue Apr 05 2011 09:21 PM)
Edit Reason: add last two lines
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#612589 - Tue Apr 05 2011 10:19 PM Re: Foreign language quiz questions
kyleisalive Online   FT-cool
Forum Champion

Registered: Mon Mar 07 2005
Posts: 7995
Loc: Toronto, Canada, eh!
Quote:
I certainly have the right to avoid quizzes I do not wish to play


That's perfectly fine, but isn't it unfair to the people who like Language questions to remove them from the hourlies in the same way that it would be unfair to remove Cryptics quizzes from the Brain Twist?


Quote:
Whether I like these quizzes or not is really not the point.


Then what is this about? In my previous post in this thread, I asked for suggestions to make them more palatable and reasons as to why they weren't good for a daily/hourly setting, but there haven't been any yet. I just don't think it's fair for one person, one group, or one team to say "we don't like this" and have the topic pushed aside, especially when a number of our authors put a lot of effort into something they enjoy writing about.


Quote:
I play these quizzes both to win and to learn. I can do neither in this situation.


Unfortunately, there's not much I can say about this. If you're not willing to learn facts about math, you're not going to be well-suited to a quiz about math. Ditto languages.



I'm not writing this to argue, insult, or put anyone down, I'm really just trying to understand why our language quizzes are bad for daily/hourly games and why other topics aren't. As I said before, I've never recognized these as 'translating' answers; it's about 'knowing' answers, and this goes across the board with trivia. I understand that you're displeased with the situation, but what's the point in rating the questions lower, sending notes claiming that you don't appreciate the quizzes, and asking to remove sets of questions that aren't to a small group's liking?

To me, it's a case of "I know it or I don't". A score's a score. C'est la vie.
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#612639 - Wed Apr 06 2011 05:59 AM Re: Foreign language quiz questions
agony Online   content

Administrator

Registered: Sat Mar 29 2003
Posts: 14908
Loc: Western Canada
I'm another who truly doesn't understand what the problem is. How are language questions different than any other on the site? What would be an example of a "trivia" question, and what sets it apart from a "translation" question?

I get the feeling that those of you who don't like these questions are very upset about them, and that you feel attacked on this thread, but you haven't made your point very clearly. Those who disagree with you have made arguments as to why they feel the questions have a place here, but you haven't refuted them.

You really can't come to a forum, make a fairly provocative statement, and then not expect to have to defend your point. You have a right to say what you want, but others have a right to disagree with you.

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#612643 - Wed Apr 06 2011 06:25 AM Re: Foreign language quiz questions
szabs Offline
Star Poster

Registered: Mon Aug 13 2007
Posts: 14745
Loc: Mijas, MalagaSpain
One of the things I most like and enjoy about FT, is that it doesn't just cater for one nationality, no matter where you live in the world as long as you have a relatively good knowledge of English, you can participate in any array of quizzes that you enjoy. I must admit that there isn't a day that I am on the site that I don't learn something new, I think that is wonderful, what a lovely way to increase your knowledge and at the same time we are having fun, which is what this site is about. Ok some of us are more competitive that others, I for one love to participate in the hourly games I think the vast array of different questions that come up including the language ones or some obscures ones for me make it more fun, but very rarely have I actually come in first, I take a bit longer to read, my internet connection isn't as fast as maybe others but, as I am not here to win a world competition, I have to agree that a "a score's a score", but I really would not like to see these questions taken out.

I personally am multilingual (Heinz 57- some call me), studied languages since I was a little kid, and also have had the fortune of living in several countries, so I picked up more languages than most people would, saying this I don't speak, Dutch, Swahili or Bengali among others, but just because of that I don't sneer when a language translation question comes along that I don't know the answer to, I just try to have an educated guess about it, and yes I learn.

It's very unfortunate if you find that you can't learn a little bit about languages because it spoils your score.

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#612653 - Wed Apr 06 2011 07:04 AM Re: Foreign language quiz questions
shuehorn Offline
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Registered: Tue Jul 04 2006
Posts: 3613
Loc: Lawrenceville Georgia�USA�...
Originally Posted By: kyleisalive
Rich, Fred, and others: what is it about these particular questions that makes them unappealing for the dailies, hourlies, and quizzes in general?

Shuehorn specified question/answer length, but from what I gather this isn't what had you guys concerned.

...


I'd like to clarify that my suggestion of length was in response to someone else's comment about that, and I was pointing out that language questions aren't the only ones that are sometimes too long for hourlies. There are many other categories where the length of questions often makes me take longer than the maximum allowed time. I don't think language questions are particularly guilty of this. Part of the problem is that I try to answer everything, and I should probably just make a wild guess on a really long math question, but I doggedly try to read the thing and understand it before guessing. My strategy doesn't lend itself to very fast play.

In an earlier post, I said that I love language questions and can usually puzzle out what is meant using the types of clues that are built into the best of these questions. They are one of the the things I most enjoy.
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#612654 - Wed Apr 06 2011 07:06 AM Re: Foreign language quiz questions
fredsixties Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: Wed Oct 01 2008
Posts: 349
Loc: Staten Island
NewYorkUSA
Not sure how we got off the beaten track here. I don't think anyone is asking for language quizzes to be excluded. Of course there are some very good language quizzes on the site. The concern is for these types of questions showing up in some of the hourlies. A question that gives four phrases in an foreign language (not meaning to offend anyone, but the overwhelming majority of users on this site speak English) and then asks what the phrase means doesn't, in my opinion, belong in the hourlies, which are mostly based on speed of answer. Guessing at or skipping the question defeats one of the purposes of those games. Maybe these questions could be filtered out of the hourlies. This may be a miniority opinion, but nonetheless valid to those who hold it.

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#612658 - Wed Apr 06 2011 07:26 AM Re: Foreign language quiz questions
fredsixties Offline
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Registered: Wed Oct 01 2008
Posts: 349
Loc: Staten Island
NewYorkUSA
Just came across a perfect example. I believe this is the type of question that has 'come into question' so to speak. A question like this is very difficult to negotiate in any of the hourly games where time is a factor. You are asking a person who may have no knowledge of this language to first translate foru phrases and then analyze them to see which fits best. That would be time consuming even if the question was in the language spoken by the player.In this example, if you don't speak Spanish, your only two choices would be to guess or skip this question. It read as follows:

After a wonderful day vacationing in Mexico, you develop a bad case of Montezuma's Revenge (diarrhea and vomiting). Which of these activities do you regret the least?

Comiendo en el restaurante que tenia pollos corriendo en la cocina.
Pidiendo una botella de agua mineral con tu cena.
Compartiendo tu cena con los puercos que andaban afuera.
Cepillando tus dientes con agua del fregadero.

I also don't see how a question like this is considered trivia.
I think this is the crux of the discussion. It's not saying the quizzes are bad or should be eliminated. I think it's just a matter of question placement.

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#612659 - Wed Apr 06 2011 07:26 AM Re: Foreign language quiz questions
LadyCaitriona Offline
Forum Champion

Registered: Thu Feb 08 2001
Posts: 5985
Loc: Ottawa
Ontario Canada
Originally Posted By: fredsixties
This may be a miniority opinion, but nonetheless valid to those who hold it.


Nobody's questioning your right to dislike the questions OR their appearance in the timed games; it's only that you have put forward a proposal that would affect all the users on the site (to remove the questions from the daily/hourly question cache). Many users have responded saying that they would be disappointed in having them removed.

If FT continually catered to the likes/dislikes of every single group of people, we would very quickly be reduced to having no content whatsoever.

Everyone is given the ability to filter out things that they don't like to a certain extent. I've filtered out Sports and Religion quizzes from my news feed because I don't enjoy these quizzes and I don't play them. But I wouldn't suggest that they should be removed from the hourly games because I find them difficult to answer. When one comes up I frown, make a guess, and hope for better luck next time. It's something I think we all go through.
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#612660 - Wed Apr 06 2011 07:27 AM Re: Foreign language quiz questions
reeshy Offline
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Registered: Tue Aug 11 2009
Posts: 741
Loc: Glasgow ScotlandUK
fredsixties, the way I and probably others see it is that you guys are suggesting the language questions be excluded from the hourlies. However, what I'm failing to see is why you don't like language questions specifically. If in an hourly game, I'm asked a question about sports or a book I've never read, that's no different to a language question to me. I either know it or I don't. The question may be long or short. I may like the question or not. The point is that if I don't have a clue as to the answer, I'll have to guess same as you will on the language questions. I have no idea, for example, when Babe Ruth was born, so when presented with four years, I simply have to make a guess. Should questions like this be taken out of the hourly game because I can't get it correct fast? No, I don't think so. I'm failing to see what exactly it is about the language questions that makes you want them removed, that is different from other questions people don't know.

The only bad thing about questions in hourlies is if they are too long, in my opinion, which doesn't only apply to some language questions, but many others. I frankly don't have a clue about, nor am I interested in, say, the score of some random sports game in some random year. I'll never be able to answer it correctly in an hourly game, but believe it has its place there. If you want to filter the questions that you want to play, then play untimed written quizzes or the Daily Game. I know it's not the same as timed games, but in those you just have to take what's there. You may not get the language question correct, but there's bound to be a sports question in there I'll get wrong, or a geography question someone else will get wrong. When presented with a question, it often doesn't take a long time to work out whether you know it or you don't. If you don't, guess and move on.

Your opinions are very valid, but the problem is, for me at least, that it's not clear-cut as to exactly what you have against language questions except "I don't like them" or "They're not trivia".
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#612663 - Wed Apr 06 2011 07:36 AM Re: Foreign language quiz questions
ladymacb29 Offline
Moderator

Registered: Wed Mar 15 2000
Posts: 15905
Loc: The Delta Quadrant
Ok, you don't want language questions. Ok, we'll take those out.

I don't want Sports, so we'll take those out.

Kyle doesn't want physics, so out those go.

And so on and so on until there are only 2 questions left on the site that no one objects to being in the daily quizzes. What a boring quiz that will be - after the first day we'll all be getting 100% because of the lack of questions available.

The solution has always been to submit more questions/quizzes in the category to which you object that can then be used to dilute the questions you object to.
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#612669 - Wed Apr 06 2011 08:18 AM Re: Foreign language quiz questions
richicago Offline
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Registered: Fri Feb 07 2003
Posts: 12
Loc: Chicago IllinoisUSA
My last visit to the forums. Have a nice day all

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#612670 - Wed Apr 06 2011 08:26 AM Re: Foreign language quiz questions
Nightmare Offline
Multiloquent

Registered: Wed Jun 06 2001
Posts: 4515
Loc: Texas USA
That sounds like a great plan. I personally don't care for Video. Let's see what we have so far.
Sports 11,668
Physics 67
Video 4704
Language 475

With those quizzes gone, that leaves approximately 875,770 questions left to cut from the budget. We're almost there! smile
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#612671 - Wed Apr 06 2011 08:34 AM Re: Foreign language quiz questions
darthrevan89 Offline
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Registered: Tue May 13 2008
Posts: 760
Loc: Texas USA
Quote:
I'd like to clarify that my suggestion of length was in response to someone else's comment about that, and I was pointing out that language questions aren't the only ones that are sometimes too long for hourlies.


In case my first post (the one Shuehorn referred to) was misunderstood, I'd just like to say I agree with Shuehorn completely. I wasn't picking on languages particularly, just suggesting that something might be done about any sentence-length answers in timed games. Guess I wasn't very clear, sorry!


Edited by darthrevan89 (Wed Apr 06 2011 08:34 AM)

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#612673 - Wed Apr 06 2011 08:36 AM Re: Foreign language quiz questions
ladymacb29 Offline
Moderator

Registered: Wed Mar 15 2000
Posts: 15905
Loc: The Delta Quadrant
Originally Posted By: Nightmare
That sounds like a great plan. I personally don't care for Video. Let's see what we have so far.
Sports 11,668
Physics 67
Video 4704
Language 475

With those quizzes gone, that leaves approximately 875,770 questions left to cut from the budget. We're almost there! smile


You forgot to remove professional wrestling... Oh, let's remove all of Music too since I haven't bought a new CD in several years so it would be unfair for me to get questions on pop music. wink
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#612680 - Wed Apr 06 2011 08:47 AM Re: Foreign language quiz questions
Nightmare Offline
Multiloquent

Registered: Wed Jun 06 2001
Posts: 4515
Loc: Texas USA
That's great!

Sports 11,668
Physics 67
Video 4704
Language 475
Pro Wrestling 814
Music 13,066

With those additional quizzes gone, we're down to 736,970 questions left.
We can have a prize for those two authors whose two questions remain on the site when it is all done!
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#612681 - Wed Apr 06 2011 08:49 AM Re: Foreign language quiz questions
fredsixties Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: Wed Oct 01 2008
Posts: 349
Loc: Staten Island
NewYorkUSA
I guess being condescending and sarcastic will get you everywhere in these forums. I hope you are all enjoying entertaining yourselves. Obviously there is no room for disagreement here. I am done.

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#612683 - Wed Apr 06 2011 08:54 AM Re: Foreign language quiz questions
Nightmare Offline
Multiloquent

Registered: Wed Jun 06 2001
Posts: 4515
Loc: Texas USA
I certainly wasn't being either. Ladymacb29 had a great idea, so I'm going with it. Also, look at the very last line of my post. That line has been there for over 10 years.
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#612684 - Wed Apr 06 2011 08:57 AM Re: Foreign language quiz questions
postcards2go Offline
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Registered: Thu Nov 20 2008
Posts: 1217
Loc: New York City USA
binary... I could certainly live without binary, and most math questions. Higher math just isn't relevant in my day-to-day existence.



While I agree that the length of many questions (across all categories) is tedious in the hourlies, I don't feel that I have a right to object when I chose to do a Sci/Tech quiz and it turns out to be more Tech than Sci. A World quiz may have language questions, and I tend to avoid the category, but have no objection to their inclusion. Indeed, that fact that I *don't* understand most of the languages, makes them that much *more* trivial.
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