Pim Fortuyn, a right wing politican in the Netherlands has been shot and is not expected to survive his injuries.

Read about it here - BBC

I'm in shock!!!!! He died! What's next?! Just because you have a fairly extreme opinion, you shouldn't have to fear for your life! Nine days before the elections and all parties stopped campaigning...
(btw it's the first time ever a Dutch politician is shot!)

Keep us informed of the situation, whether the elections go ahead.

I was playing field hockey as some girls were talking about the shooting. I couldn't believe it! Especially since I'm so lucky to live in a country where shootings are very rare. I went to the canteen and everybody was watching tv in shock! Even though lots of people totally disagreed with his political opinions.

Just saw his dead body on tv. Terrible! I didn't know him, but I feel as if I they shot someone close.

As for now, all the party leaders (well, the exact translation my dictionary gives is "person heading the list of candidates") are gathering tonight (it's 20h30 now here) to discuss what they'll do. The campaigns are stopped for at least two days.

I'll keep you posted!

They've just announced it here and I'd just read an excellent article on him in this weekend's paper.
He was quite a character, he must have scared someone badly!
Though he was openly homosexual he was to the right and wanted to restrict immigration to the people who assimilated.
I understand how this feels when you live in a peaceful country, I'm sorry to hear this.
He was an interesting figure on the political scene in Holland.

It's not so obvious to me that Pim Fortuyn was a "right-wing" politician in the usual sense of the word.
He repeatedly declared about himself that he was NOT a hater of foreigners. As a homosexual he knew what discrimination was about.
It's also remarkable that he started as a member of the Socialist party.
Even on those who disagreed with him he made the impression of being an honest man.
The reactions to his death are not the reactions to the death of 'just a politician'.
It looks as this is strangely enough similar to the assassination of the Kennedys, Martin Luther King.
May be a man with the wrong solutions, but at any rate a man with some very good questions.
The assassin has been said to be a 33-year old Dutchman who refuses to talk about his identity, motivation, etc.

In a wider context it's clear to me that all the present "unrest" in Europe is a delayed effect of the 11 September events. People have suddenly lost so many of their certainties.
This has very little to do with the old left-right divide.

I agree that Pim Fortuyn was not a member of the traditional 'Right', but he was certainly a member in good standing of the European 'New Right', which is not really one group at all. The New Right in Europe ranges from the brutishness of Le Pen in France or Austria's Joerg Haider right through to the gently xenophobic policies of Christian Blocher in Switzerland or the DDP in Denmark. What these parties have more or less in common is that they are all Euro-shy and anti-immigration (read "Muslim" immigration). Certainly the events of September 11 exacerbated the situation, but all of these parties were in existence before that time and most of them have been doing very well.

Pim Fortuyn was a remarkably astute politian and master manipulator. He repeatedly stated that he did not hate foreigners. On the other hand, his attacks on immigrants and immigration policies and his demand that the discrimination clause in the constitution be scrapped got him kicked out of his own party. He was a homosexual, but he made his homosexuality work for him. As a pure-blood Hollander, a man, and a member of the academic elite in a small, intelligent and highly tolerant country the kind of discrimination he avowedly faced was light years away from what he proposed for Muslim immigrants.

I am in shock this morning when I heard the news, but I am not particularly sorry for Fortuyn. I feel terrible sadness for the Dutch people, for whom this kind of political mayhem is utterly foreign. Fortuyn was a political opportunist and appealed to the basest, to the easy-way-out feelings in people, pointing a finger of blame rather than discussing issues in depth and roused just the kind of anger that ends in such stupid violence.

I think that the events of the past few weeks - in France, and now with the death of Pim Fortuyn -should indicate to everyone that something is going on here that cannot be covered up with multicultural platitudes. I come from a big, big country where everyone is an immigrant except the Native peoples, and multiculturalism is a struggling concept there. Here in Europe, countries are small and relatively mono-cultural and for sure large groups of immigrants from a very foreign culture are going to cause problems for a lot of people. If you react to this by branding everyone who asks for dialogue on the subject a racist, this will throw a respectable proportion of your electorate into the arms of the Fortyns or the Le Pens. These people, either quietly or openly, breed hatred and resentment and I do think that the whole of Europe is going to have to look at the situation a lot more seriously.

The parliament has just decided that elections will take place as planned. All campaigning is stopped however. I hope the elections will still show a result that is not influenced by last night's shooting...

Some thoughts the day after..
1. Why is extreme right so succesful?
Moderate Left moved towards the centre. So did Moderate Right. Result : policies with apparently 'harmonious solutions" that don't dig very deep however, and are fundamentally unexciting, grey, boring.
Extreme Left traditionally looks down on anything that is not theoretical enough to be ununderstandable for the ordinary working class.
Working Class itself has moved up to some "middle position" - at least in the West and sees its ideals not in class-solidarity but in the acquisition of what the old middle class targeted: a nice car, a fine house, and enjoyable holidays. The working-class has become bourgeois in its aspirations.
And what does the Extreme Right do ? They find the gap in the market. Have learned how to use the media, how to package their ideas to make them look as if they were what everybody secretly thinks. They have dressed up themselves in the symbols of decency: impeccable well-tailored suits ; ties are in , jeans are out.
And every time they find a leader with a good mix of "charisma" (whatever that may be); panache; chutzpah; mediatic skill..they 'score'. Resentful whites are given the tools to make the 'foreign newcomers' into scapegoats for anything that annoys them.
The loss of traditional values has made a number of people feel insecure. So insecurity becomes the number one problem. And a good extreme right tactician knows how to increase that feeling of insecurity.
2. Was Pim Fortuyn an extreme right politician?
If you analyse his programme it mixes "progressive", even libertarian ideas, with reactionary simplifications. But he has a nice sauce to cover it up: sense of humour ; swift replies; an exaggerated self-confidence.
He radiates "self-assurance", even when that self-assurance also means unwillingness to listen.
3. What made him vulnerable?
You might say that anyone who makes his fortune through the media, can be brought down via the same media-effects.
He becomes TOO conspicuous. He can be 'demonised'.
Just in the same way as TV-debates tend to be ideal for simplifications, the people who are brilliant in manipulating them become a target for the other simplifiers. The ones who stay out of the limelight and believe in another type of avoiding democratic debate. The men with the bullets who do not believe in real debate either.
4. Dobrov's commentary which I found very lucid, makes me wonder about something. Is it so that one sees the truth slightly better when looking from some distance and shoves aside the emotional aspect of the events. Indeed, even though Fortuyn may have been an honest person ( in my view more honest than most of the other extreme right politicians), his approach was that of the man-who-knows best and is ready to take over the burden of thinking from you. HE has the solution, you only have to FOLLOW him. In fact he IS the solution. You just have to elect him and put him at the head of the nation.
Logical that some of his enemies then simplify the whole situation and mistakenly believe: No Pim Fortuyn any more, no problem any more.
By the way ever heard of Poujade? At the great rallies Lepen in his younger days was the pre-programme of Poujade.

[ 05-07-2002, 09:51 AM: Message edited by: flem ]

flem, I absolutely think that it is easier to look at things objectively from a distance! Just tonight I was discussing that with some friends. Everybody in the Netherlands (or at least everybody over 18) is supposed to have an opinion on Pim Fortuyn and to vote accordingly. When you don't live here and you don't have to vote, you can still have an opinion. But because you don't have to decide whether to vote in his favor or against him, your opinion can be grey instead of black or white. (I'm not sure I'm making myself clear, because I'm more of a talker than a writer ) Pim's ideas are not going to affect you right away, so you can think without having emotions getting involved.

And then of course there is the media. Dutch media haven't been that precise when it comes to expressing the ideas of Pim Fortuyn. Biassed, I guess. To me Pim Fortuyn didn't seem all that extreme, it's just what you want to hear...

I'm really no expert on politics, so it's just how I see this as a layman.

Well all I can say is that in comparison with the rest of the European right wing Lepen,Haider,Dewinter...he was much superior because of his openness about himself,his sense of humour and his talent to counter an opponent.
I also think he put quite a few of the right questions.
As to his having been demonised by the press or the left I disagree. There is no denying he liked to provoke and he obliged his opponents to leave their ivory tower of self-sufficient camaraderie
"among politicians".
What I disliked about him is that he always wanted to push through his own views without listening to those of others. But I must admit that this is a classic trick in the political game.
That's why in general political debates are so frustrating to me: everybody listens to themselves and nobody else.

By the way what is happening these days in the Netherlands shows that the classic generalisations about what the Dutch people are like cut no ice.
Were they any less emotional than the British when Diana had died ?

"Cliche opinions" about other nations and other people are simply our defensive mechanisms with which we can avoid to really meet another person or other people as who or what they are. We have preconceived ideas about them so that we can omit to make the effort to really understand them.
This also applies to Pim Fortuyn. One has to listen to dissenters. Which does not mean yet that
one has to accept anything they say at facevalue.

I didn't like the man's ideas that much, but I loved to hear him talk in the media...

I think we have missed a great opportunity to get some evidence that extreme politics won't work. Sure, he had some great ideas and sure the people of holland were happy to hear someone expressing their thoughts, but I would liked to have seen him realise it. All the money that was needed for his plans, where would it come from? Or would the people who voted for him pay some extra taxes?

But now he will become some kind of hero from the people, without having to realise anything I'm afraid. I think the elections will be a huge mistake, people will vote on him out of sympathy and hence a completely unexperienced bunch of people will get too much power for the good of the nation. Pim wasn't pleased himself with the qualities of the people on his list, so the rest of holland shouldn't ellect those people...

In conclusion, I do think he was a remarkable man, who brought the political discussion to a new level and we should be gratefull for that. But please, he was no angel, he loved the controversy and some of his ideas were just off limits in my mind.

Wimm, I totally agree that he was no angel. Not even close! But you know what they say, "over de doden niets dan goeds" (don't know this one in English... transl. "nothing but good when speaking over the dead" or something). A lot of people are just so shocked by the fact that someone got shot for expressing his opinion that they tend to forget they didn't agree with that opinion to begin with! As protest marches have been held and tons of flowers and candles and letters have been laid in front of his house, it's more and more beginning to look like everybody loved the guy.

Speaking for myself, I think Pim Fortuyn was one of the few people of his party (maybe even the only one) who knew how to work the people. His party decided not to appoint another leader, because they want it to be possible to vote for Pim Fortuyn posthumously. I reckon there's a big chance it will lead to total chaos and the falling apart of the party if they get to many votes. Most of their members have no political experience whatsoever, so you can guess what happens when suddenly half the parliament consists of newbies...

I would rather have had postponed elections!

Hi Guys, this is your roving reporter in France and I've been listening to the French coverage of the events.
Perhaps the LePen near miss, and now, relief and rethinking, affected their coverage of the assassination. I don't think he's being portrayed like LePen.

Now, I'm extrapolating here, but I'm thinking that his purported racism is actually the expression of, like many comics in one way, one of those sentiments that many people think and few express.
And as he himself comes from a group who are the target of discrimination, homosexuals, he is not a typical opponent of immigration.

I imagine his propos were against floodgates of immigration being opened and especially, people living in the country who do not accept the country's ways and assimilate.
This is what many people felt in France, and without ever being capable of racism in the classic sense, they simply felt as though it was unfair for those who worked and contribute to society to be treated worse than those who didn't.
Was the guy openly preaching to send legal immigrants back to their countries? I never heard that he preached that.
Though I don't think I have it in my heart to be a racist, even I do feel as though the French govt. was rewarding people for not working. I am an immigrant myself too. And if some of the people receiving benefits were foreigners who had enormous families and actually defrauded the govt by claiming children they didn't have, then sure, I get fed up with my paycheck having a big chunk out of it each month for that!
In Strasbourg France, the benefits office had Mercedes parked in front of it, and in the lobby, there were Tzigane families claiming 10 kids per family! I wish I were exaggerating. Most of the people asking for handouts in the streets of Paris, are receiving benefits from the government and claiming more children than they have. The police haven't got the right to stop the minors from pickpocketing or even to put them into jail.
A town over a certain population is required to provide land for a trailer or caravan park for the traveling people.
The Dutch tourists who visit here have to pay to camp, but the traveling people receiving benefits per child, do not pay any taxes, nor lodging for their homes on wheels.
I suppose it is only a matter of time, if your situation in Holland is similar before Dutch say, "well, it's fine to help some people, but not all of them. And after all, they do need to be taught to help themselves."

Even the most politically correct person in the world will reach a point where he or she has to say that some situations are not logical.
This is why I think Fortuyn reached an audience.

The left here in France, just kind of poured oil on the fire. They kept on pouring money onto problems, giving more benefits to people while the people like me, well, my unemployment was not enough to pay my rent, and when I accepted a job for slightly less than the payment, people said I was crazy! I got more hours after that and was relieved, but many people would not have accepted a job.

Also some of the neighborhoods with large Magrehbin populations are dangerous, as even the firefighters who go in to stop fires are beaten and taunted! So even with all the help given to them, they bite the hand that feeds them. (ils crachent dans la soupe). The only answer from the authorities is that they can't help themselves, they are disadvantaged, just give them more. If they put them into jails, they are treated as racists.

This is why the left was punished by the vote for LePen, probably not a deep racist sentiment. There are some like that, but personally I think that if a person conforms to French society, they can probably achieve quite a bit. Our community is multicultural and multiracial. The kids are all singing at the monument to the war today.

Per Fortuyn didn't seem to resemble LePen as much as has been said.

I think the Dutch are mourning the free speech that they enjoyed, the spirit of tolerance for difference.

Well, I don't want to speak ill of the dead, I'm afraid I had nothing good to say about Fortuyn last week, and I find I don't this week either. If you check up top here a bit you'll read Flem's brilliant pocket analysis of the new right, and I am in agreement with him about 89%. However, I would like to take issue on a couple of points.

First, I just can't see that Fortuyn was much better or less dangerous than Le Pen - perhaps quite the opposite. Le Pen is an old-right stump-thumping, anti-intellectual bigot. Fortuyn was much better packaged - what with his Gucci Pucci Fiorucci gear and way more respectable social and intellectual credentials. However if you strip away all the flash, what he actually had to say was appalling.

Fortuyn didn't dwell much on the old "They're all thieves and prostitutes and they're taking our jobs" kind of crudities. He concentrated his attacks on Islam itself, as intrinsically "backward" and "primitive", and that a Muslim presence in a small state like The Netherlands was a danger that struck at the very heart of European civilization. Further, as he outlined in his book, this process of degeneration has already begun. The fact that he wanted the discrimination clause in the constitution scrapped seems to me pretty ominous. In fact, I see it as ironic that he did what he accused Kok and the mainstream of doing - he largely ignored the very real and specific problems with third-world immigration that Bruyere points out in favour of semi-esoteric attacks on the foundations of a world religion and absolutely everyone who participates in it. This kind of extrapolation is not, I believe, what everyone secretly 'thinks' all the time, but what everyone secretly 'feels' some of the time and France's brilliant rally and Le Pen's shellacking this last week bear me out. When the crunch comes, most people can tell the difference.

Certainly, he gave good sound bites and he was great in debate, because most mainstream politicians usually counter these kind of claims with politically correct pap that a man of Fortuyn's intellectual calibre would find a joy to shoot down. But this does not make him a nice guy and that he is presently undergoing a process of Dianafication makes me slightly nauseous.

Second, I was happy to read that both Flem and lo accepted my comments as an outsider, but I don't see Fortuyn as a particularly Dutch phenomenon. Not even particularly European. It's happening more or less everywhere these days and it's depressing.

Point well taken, I'm afraid as the coverage in post LePen election territory was a bit, careful, they didn't actually emphasize the guy trying to take out all of Islam.

It's so easy to manipulate people now. I keep wondering in such highly educated populations how people can buy this stuff!

But then on the other hand as I said before, everyone on an everyday basis sees that the politically correct answer is failing dismally.
Really!
When you deal with the everyday aggravations and you lose your job and see that many people aren't working and getting benefits without even dreaming of getting work again, and then, in my case, my car gets stolen and burnt by people who commit a crime with it, and I look around me and see how much they take out of my check each month for the social security system, I occasionally see how easy it might be to manipulate someone a little more vulnerable.

Well, this is extremely delicate, as here there are frequent battles for the Muslim girls being allowed to wear the tchador to school. They aren't allowed to participate in sports either in some cases. The public schools sometimes refuse and then a whole thing starts up again.
The press makes a big deal out of these things, but the aggravation to daily life encroaches on some people. The clashes of religious beliefs of the newcomers.
It's not an easy time to live through though.

Oh dear I'm reading over what I wrote last night and it looks so heavy...I'm not a bad person, really! Just a crabby old hippy with a bad back.

For goodness sake, I'm not glad Fortuyn died at all. No one should have to die for expressing their opinions. On the other hand, he wasn't just expressing his opinions, but he was in the process of trying to sway a whole nation to his point of view. And I got a email from a friend in Amsterdam last night that reported that an animal rights activist has been arrested for his murder. So Pim didn't even die for his opinions, he died because his high profile made him the target of an off-topic nutter. Every nation has some of those.

[ 05-08-2002, 05:05 PM: Message edited by: Dobrov ]

To all people involved in this issue I realise that it is a very sensitive topic. First I must note that I am from Australia, a long way away and only know what has been printed in the papers and was on the news so i don't really know the intricasies of this argument, but if I may I will relate and Australian situaton to you!
In our second last federal election we a had lady by the name of Pauline Hanssen, who was a right wing Liberal member who broke from the party and started her own part called One Nation.
Together with a gentleman called David Oldfield they managed to rain havoc on Australian politics for the better part of 6 years. In one election they managed to just about destroy the Queensland liberal party through their right wing views and outlandish policies.
Just as a matter of cause here are some of One Nations policies & these are genuine I assure you!
Solving economic problems in Australia?
Solution: Print More Money
Solving unemployment problems?
Exclude migrants & I quote "especialy from Asia"
These are just two examples of their idocy.
Now back to this situation with this gentleman from Holland. I know that people in Europe are much more passionate about these sort of things than Australians are which is understandable.
However after 6 years of Pauline this was our solution..........................................1. We ensured that she could not win her seat by running superstar candiates against her.
2. We wrote songs about her (that made the Aust top 10.) an embarrassed her.
3. We took her to court and sued her for 5 million dollars claiming that one nation was fraudulantly registered.
See how simple it is, people there are far easier and legal ways to get rid of right-wing politicans than assassinating them!

Welcome to the forums, I think we'd like to invite you to the history and geography section for the place names thread! That's worth a story!

Dobrov you and I are probably in a similar situation. I'm sort of an old hippie now myself! But trying to fathom how people can make such a choice or selection.
I always try to think of how I am feeling when I see these tchador things erupt, and if French people are much more tolerant than you might even think, imposing their native customs on a whole school is not the way to go about assimilating.
Though they don't care what your religion is in the long run, when they see this, and it's even worse with people who were ejected from North Africa and whose graves were desecrated to see the customs of the immigrants being respected more than theirs were, they get fed up.

The racial problem in France is the Algerians kicked out the French and they gave up everything and started over in France, and then they immigrated here. And everyone was in the same apartment building!
So when people see that the new immigrants want to impose their rules on the French though they didn't respect the Christian graves when they kicked them out, well there's tension!

LePen was in Algeria too. This is why he was successful at manipulating people from a certain age and background.

So I am not familiar with the immigration situation in Holland, Indonesia is one of the largest Muslim nations isn't it? Are the immigrants from there?

They're burying him in in Rotterdam today. Major crowds are expected. Any word from our Dutch friends?

Bruyere, most of the Muslim immigrants in the Netherlands come from Turkey and Morocco.

Have been sailing for a few days, so I missed the funeral and all. I only saw a few minutes on the news tonight. Must have been a huge event!

The above please keep me posted on what's happening! This forum you wrote is gettin' alot of attention!