First of all, I am not in a position to end an animal's life like Councilwoman Dixon is. I can speculate as to what happened and what didn't happen because I am not bringing charges against a police officer.

On the other hand, Dixon shouldn't be allowed to speculate as to what happened. Before she says what transpired that day she must know the facts, all the facts.

By her statements she didn't research this case carefully. She says one thing one day and then, to suit her, she says another thing another day.

Also, Izzi, I have been on jury duty, and before I made my decision I weighed each side carefully, before making a decision. This is what a person who is in the position to send someone to prison should do. This should also be done when a person, like councilwoman Dixon, who is in the position to murder an officer. She should not speculate as to what happened, since her speculation can feasibly kill an innocent officer.

DN: What on earth is this nonsense about "killing an officer"? Who said anything about killing the cop? The only "sense" I can make of this is that you're somehow morally equating the dog with a human police officer. If this is true, I see no purpose continuing this argument as your definition of rationality obviously differs from mine.

Second, I'm no expert on the ins and outs of the political system in this town, but I seriously doubt that Councilwoman Dixon is in a position to unilaterally order the dog killed, no more than any other citizen. It's a bureaucrat who makes that decision, not a legislator, just as it's a judge and jury who would decide whether the handler goes to jail and a prosecutor who decides whether to press charges. She is none of those. What she has is connections and a publicity machine. She is only doing her job: her constituents have concerns about a police dog. She is publicizing their concerns, making her (and their) opinion known, and lobbying for a solution that will put their minds at rest. This is American representative democracy at work. I don't see why this is so hard to recognize, and I don't see why it isn't a politician's job to speculate. You get the facts, you speculate what might have caused them, you get more facts, you speculate some more. This is the way human beings make decisions.

I also don't understand your accusations that Councilwoman Dixon is lying "by her own statements." Please produce such a statement. Please produce something she has said that has been proven to be a lie, not merely something that contradicts some grand ideal about how all dogs are benevolent, color-blind, gentle, innocent creatures. They aren't. Dogs are carnivores, and sometimes their behavior reflects this fact. This doesn't mean that everyone who disagrees with you is a lying dog-hater. You've gone to extraordinary lengths to defend this animal, and you seem to be insinuating that the entire black community in this area has been conspiring against a single police dog for months and has even tried to get a little boy mauled just so they could use that against him. Doesn't this scenario strike you as a tad unlikely?

I don't believe that anyone has suggested for one moment that you are racist Dakota North. It is, however, very obvious that you are completely blinkered where animals are concerned. It would appear from your remarks here that no matter what you hear or read an animal cannot be in the wrong as far as you are concerned.

Wasn't it you who suggested the possibility of the injured boy carrying drugs, opening the door of the police wagon, antagonizing the police officer and the police dog? Now we find that the boy might not have actually been at the scene of the arrest after all.

I am mightily relieved to hear that you carried out your jury duties with the responsibility they entailed.

I agree completely with every word you wrote in your last post Cellardoor, you put that across very well indeed.

Dogs do bite people. I'm 100 per cent certain that each and every time they do so, they have a reason. But let's keep in mind that what's a sound reason IN A DOG'S MIND isn't always a reason acceptable to human society. No one could possibly love their dogs more than I do, but I will admit that I have one that's a biter. So far she hasn't bitten anyone badly, nor anyone outside the family, but if and when she does, she WILL be put down. She lives inside a fenced yard, but she occassionally pulls a Houdini and escapes, and if she becomes more fractious with age, she'll have to go. She's bitten my mother twice---both times while Mom was using the lawn mower. The dog hates the lawn mower; biting the mower itself has no effect;so, intelligent creature that she is, now she's going for the human who's causing the mower to run. You can't fault her logic, but neither can you condone her solution to the problem. It's a perfectly good reason to bite, in her mind---but the grass has to be cut, and she will have to learn to endure it or suffer the consequences.

MsBatt that's a bit of a problem you have with your dog there. Have you actually tried anything to overcome it? You could try getting your dog gradually more used to the mower by using it a few times without the motor running, just push it up and down the lawn. Distraction tactics sometimes work as well, perhaps another family member playing with the dog and a favourite toy.

Failing that, it would be better for all concerned to shut her in while mowing before a more serious attack happens if she gets that upset over it.

I know MsBatt has border collies; they are certainly known for their eccentricities!

But yes, desensitization therapy with dogs often works. The best approach is to first find exactly how close the lawnmower must be to the dog to trigger a reaction. Treatment starts by having the lawnmower just outside the reaction range. The dog is praised and fed (or in the case of a border collie, perhaps allowed to play with a favorite toy). Whatever is used as a reinforcer must be more valuable than a lawnmower chase to the dog! The dog should also be on a leash so that it cannot go after the mower. Then the mower is moved just a bit closer, and the dog is again rewarded for not reacting in the lawnmower's presence. If the dog reacts, the session is ended, and the next session must start with the mower a bit further away. This is repeated until the dog fails to react at all to the mower's presence, even when close by. It can take quite a while- the process must not be rushed or you'll have a setback. But it does work.

Another thing to consider is why your dog is afraid of noise. Has she always been like this since puppyhood, or has she only recently started becoming more sensitive to the roar of the mower.

Has she been frightened by a particularly close motorbike while walking on a lead on a pathway? Is she becoming deaf due to age or possibly ear infection?

Any of these could be the basic problem which must be dealt with too.

I realise that we are getting off the main subject of this thread, but just wanted to try and help a fellow member with a family pet's behavioural problem.

The reason I always follow these dog bite discussions so closely is that I've been bitten three times myself. I assure you I never lied about why they bit me either. I didn't throw stones at them, nor did I even run away from the one dog. I was raised with dogs as well so not exactly like I didn't respect them.
The worst one by far was as a twelve year old, entering my girlfriend's house after ringing the doorbell. (that must have been what I did to aggress the dog, right?). I knew the dog from previous visits too. A big labrador mix too! Well behaved and a female! No puppies either to protect. My friend came to answer the door and made the normal soothing noises you make to a dog who is annoyed by the postman. I said "Hello".
I found myself with the dog's jaws in my stomach! She just knocked me over! No, I didn't hit the dog's owner, not my style! THank god overalls were the fashion, the teeth went through and grazed my skin only. I had the scars for a while though. THe parents were mortified! Why a person the dog knew? No one ever found out.
Statistically I am not in the norm though, as more boys get bitten than girls, I'll grant you this, boys can be more aggressive with animals than girls, and even "wrassling" with them. Then I was older than most victims. And the dog was a female. Unneutered males are the perpetrators of most incidents, statistically proven.
THe other two incidents were while on a bike. Dog out in the middle of the field on a road I take every day, sees me, starts running, grazes my leg...still got that scar. Irish setter.
The other one was a mutt, I was on a bike.
My grandmother was savagely knocked down by a neighbor's dog when someone gave her a package for the neighbor lady. Her crime was to knock on the screendoor. She knew the dog too. She had broken bones, the dog ripped her glasses off as well. She didn't sue the neighbors but the dog was put away as it was his third such aggression!
I was threatened daily by a shepherd mix who was extremely hostile to me and my child in my own apartment building because the woman took no care of the dog. Police refused to help, private property. The woman refused to keep the door locked! Next to the commonly used laundry room! Or in the hallway.
What was my crime at inciting the dog to approach me by about two inches, and not backing away when I yelled at it?
Well, I'm technically in his territory! How silly of me not to realize?
I know the dog mind thinks this, but what the hell does a mother do when threatened every day by a dog in her hallway? That damn dog didn't back down.
Plus, the woman was the mother of a newborn child...I could feel how dangerous it was.
Well I just threatened legal action and contacted the owner of her apartment...because otherwise, the dog was going to hurt someone, even the woman's child.
Did I think of neutralizing the animal? Damned right I did. When the time comes to defend yourself against a dog that isn't being contained, the police refuse to come as it isn't public property...well, sure I thought of it.
So if someone like me, a pretty lawful person, threatened in my own home that I pay taxes and condo fees for, thinks about neutralizing the dog...as it is really threatening my safety and my kid's...well, you can imagine what others must feel.
I think MsBatt also said it well. All dogs have reasons to bite people or act aggressively, but they aren't the same reasons as we might think.
Do I think all dogs are bad? No way! Of course not.

Now, here comes the research. Did you all know that insurance companies are beginning to refuse to insure owners of certain breeds because of lawsuits against these dogs in biting incidents?
Now calls of "dog racism" are becoming common but it's like the insurance companies making young males pay more than females, it's based on stats for accidents.
A dog is a liability now for a homeowner like an uncovered swimming pool or something. And pitbulls and Rottweillers and those dogs that were involved in the SF incident are on the list.
Sure you might not think it's fair, but it's reality. If the reason Pitbulls are on the list is that they simply are owned by people who train them to fight more than people who wish to own them as good companions and competent dog trainers, then that's the way they base their statistics.

Here's one proposal I read, that people who wish to own certain breeds pass a test.
For me, it seems kind of logical. I'm not thinking from a practical standpoint, but the idea itself.
Some kind of course for certain breeds.

If dogs must be licenced then why not give people a course?

You know I love animals, particularly in nature as I see some things I don't like about the custom of keeping animals, but if we keep idealizing them the way we'd like them to be, we lose sight of the fact that they don't reason like we do...and they do have instincts that no one can override.
Their instincts will spring forth in certain situations and though we might assume things and give them human reactions in our minds, they are different.

I attended a lecture many years ago when they found that chimps were capable of cannibalism. Up til then we assumed they weren't.
Or dolphins capable of violence.

I love animals for what they are, not for what they aren't.

Just wanted to let you all know that my female Collie, Beauty, died yesterday from a stroke. I was petting her and comforting her when she passed on to Rainbow Bridge.

Because I didn't know what she died from I wanted to make sure my other two dogs were safe, so I had the vet perform a necropsy. The result came back that she had a stroke and also that she was about 15-16 years old.

Beauty died at home before I had a chance to take her to the vet. Even though she was a badly abused dog because of her first owner, she was the most sweet and loving dog I know.

I really am most sincerely sorry to read that you've just lost a loyal and loving friend. I know how close a dog can become, just like a member of the family and I honestly do feel for you.

Although having other pets at home helps at this time I also know that they can never be replaced, and Beauty will always have a special place in your heart.

She was lucky to have had such a warm and loving home.

I'm sorry too Dakota, I'm glad that though your dog started out life the wrong way at least she got a second chance to live with someone who knew how to take care of her.
Not all dogs are that lucky.

RE Zero's biting behavior and the lawn mower---yes, I've tried everything you suggest, and nearly everything works---for a while. Bless her heart, she's---she's just NOT right in the head, poor dear. I do keep her confined when the mower's in use, but she's a pretty good escape artist.
She's been somewhat 'touched' since early puppyhood. She has never been abused---she was born in my lap, (lol) and has had nothing but love in her life since. Her great-uncle has seizures and has been on meds for about 8 years now, and it's possible there's some weird genetic defect that has left her unbalanced. She behaves very well, about 85% of the time, and I do my best to keep her inside the fence at ALL times. Thanks very much for your concern and words of advice---know any dog psychiatrists? (*grin*)

Dakota, I feel your pain. I have buried many loved ones over the years, and it never gets any better. The only thing I've found that helps is getting another dog, but at least you have other pets to comfort you, and mourn with you.

I'm familiar with desensitization therapy, and have tried it with Zero. Trouble is, sometimes the mower seems to drive her insane, other times she completely ignores it. She DOES seem to be less interested in the ridiing mower than the push mower---they sound the same to me, but then, her hearing's a lot better than mine.
She's almost 4 years old, and the nature of her weirdness changes as she ages. (As I suggested in the previous post, she may well have some genetic defect.) Her dislike of the mower began when she was about 18 months old, gradually increased for several months, and seems to have peaked about the time she bit (nipped, really---no blood) my mom. That's when I got really serious about desensitizing her, but for most of last summer, she seemed totally unresponsive to it. When we started mowing again this spring, she HATED the mower. Shortly thereafter, Hound started digging out under the fence (another long and sad story) and I expected we'd have a really hard time with Zero getting out while we were mowing. The first couple of times it happened, she stood and barked furiously at the mower, but didn't charge it like she had in the past, and over the past couple of months she's decided it's relative harmless and beneath her notice. (Now that I've said this, next mowing day she'll go wild again.)
She probably wasn't the best example to give of the point I was trying to make, because I don't think Zero's 'reasons' make sense even to her, much less another dog or a human. But, her eccentricities aside, she's a VERY intelligent dog, very trainable in most cases, and normally very biddable.
Mostly, I was just trying to say that Dolpho certainly had a reason for biting the little boy, but we'll never know what his reason was, and even if we did we might not agree. Dakota insists that dogs cannot lie---but their 'truth' is not always our 'truth', because dogs and humans see the world very differently.