Science Fiction Interpretations

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Subject: Science Fiction Interpretations

Posted by: brm50diboll
Date: Jan 02 17

I have debated with myself starting a Virtual Blog for months. I have so little free time nowadays that I may not be able to keep it up, but I think I'll at least try. This is intended to be wide-ranging, so it wouldn't fit in the Television, Movies, or Literature boards categories and I don't want to clog up General with just my observations but here I can rant if I choose and people can choose to ignore me or engage my flawed analysis if they wish.

469 replies. On page 20 of 24 pages. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24

terraorca

If I had to choose just one, it would have to be "Asterios Polyp" by David Mazzucchelli. I chose that one because it had so many different elements to it. It had a great story, it included interesting and meaningful colors. It contained some Biblical as well as Greek and Roman mythological references. Also,

the ending is of astronomical proportions

Reply #381. Jul 21 19, 5:36 AM

brm50diboll

I'll look that one up. Thank you, Mark. If you have others you'd like to share, I'd be glad to read about them.

Reply #382. Jul 21 19, 7:53 AM

terraorca

I don't want to burden you, let me know when you'd like another.

Reply #383. Jul 21 19, 8:42 AM

brm50diboll

You're welcome to post on a matter you find interesting anytime, Mark. I may not have much to say about it if I hadn't read or heard about it before, but that's OK. I only ask that the topic be somewhat related to science fiction, broadly defined (which I've mentioned earlier includes some horror, comic books, dystopias, and even some fantasy - but don't want to stray totally off.)

Reply #384. Jul 21 19, 9:16 AM

terraorca

Thank you Brian!

Reply #385. Jul 21 19, 9:30 AM

terraorca

I just watched 2001: A Space Odyssey. I couldn't begin to guess how many times I've watched the movie. I went to the Local Premiere in 1968.
If anyone would like to discuss the movie, let me know.
It's Sci/Fi night on Turner Classic Movies, every Tuesday in July they show Sci/Fi movies all night long.

Reply #386. Jul 23 19, 10:52 PM

brm50diboll

I have made references to 2001: A Space Odyssey in this blog before, but generally in passing. Post #170 on page 9 of this blog mentions it briefly. Obviously, I feel it is one of the most significant science fiction movies of the late 20th century. It is, of course, based on Arthur C Clarke's book of the same name (which I will admit I have not read) and the 1968 movie version was directed by the famed Stanley Kubrick. From what I understand, one of the major differences between the book and the movie was that in the book the astronauts go to Saturn whereas in the movie they go to Jupiter. I read somewhere that Jupiter was chosen over Saturn for the movie because they didn't feel they could do Saturn's rings justice with the technology available in 1968. Nevertheless, the special effects in 2001 were truly groundbreaking for the time.

There are several themes in the story worth exploring: the nature of intelligence, the nature of morality and the ability to distinguish good from evil. In my earlier posts, I had argued that I felt HAL 9000 was truly evil, not just suffering from bad programming. Since the issue has been raised, I think I will elaborate: although intelligence is a continuum and it is debatable at what point morality and good-vs-evil become evident in intelligence; nevertheless, at the ends of the intelligence spectrum we can clearly see a dichotomy. At low enough intelligence, there is no morality, only instinct. Mosquitos don't bite and spread disease because they have made an evil decision, they do so out of pure instinct (although we frequently anthropomorphize mosquitos as evil). On the other end, we can say Hitler and Stalin were evil because they were aware that their choices produced mass death, and they did so anyway for selfish reasons. There is a middle ground, however, where the issue is not so clear. We make a distinction between sentience and sapience. Higher mammals such as dogs and cats are clearly sentient, but are they sapient? I would argue that they have many (but not all) of the same emotions as humans do (which is why they make good pets, actually), but I would not consider them truly sapient. I do not think they are capable of making true moral choices. They are capable of recognizing that something they recently did may offend their owner, but this isn't true guilt, more of an anticipation of punishment. Even among humans, intellectual development plays a somewhat murky place in moral choices. The US Supreme Court has recently ruled that minors and the mentally retarded may not be executed for capital offenses that adults who are deemed competent can be executed for. But are all 17 year olds less aware of their moral choices than all 18 year olds? The age of majority is a social construct which has changed over time and between cultures. As for intelligence, what does an IQ of 80 mean, really? There are actually several different kinds of intelligence. Whatever standard we may choose is essentially arbitrary. Sometimes arbitrary standards are necessities, however. Are chimpanzees sapient? Gorillas? Dolphins?

These are all quite debatable issues. Now, let's look at what happens in 2001: in the opening sequence, the hominids are scavenging. Then the mysterious black monolith appears, and after that, a hominid gets the idea to use a bone as a weapon, and soon we see actual murder occur. The idea I got from that is the black monolith acts as a sort of "apple" of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden. Before its appearance, the hominids are incapable of being held morally responsible. Afterwards, they make moral decisions and are genuinely capable of evil. Something happened. What did the monolith do?

But the same thing applies to artificial intelligence, of which HAL 9000 is the prime example. At what point does the programming of a sophisticated computer produce true self-awareness and moral responsibility with its inherent possibility of choosing evil? It seems to happen after the astronauts discover the black monolith on the moon. Was what HAL did just a programming bug? (If you've seen the sequel, 2010, you may be able to make a good case for that.) No, I think HAL was truly evil. When Dave starts removing HAL's memory cards, although HAL complains of feeling "his mind going", the point at which HAL suddenly becomes an automaton is rather striking in the middle of the "Daisy" song. This suggests the boundary between innocence and true morality is actually a sharp one, even if we don't know exactly where that is.

Religions have also argued for millennia over where the boundary between innocence and moral responsibility is. I would make the argument that even if we are uncertain as to where that line is, it *actually* does exist.

As we continue our work in developing AI in computer programming, there has been talk about when the "singularity" will appear. By this term, we mean when will AI exceed human intelligence and become self-aware, concerned with protecting itself, and capable of making true moral choices? Not only HAL but also Skynet from "The Terminator" come to mind on this. In fact, I have recently finished watching the second season of "The Orville" and there is an episode where the crew visit Isaac's home planet of Kaylon, where a "Skynet" event has definitely occurred.

HAL is so creepy. One of the greatest lines in all of science fiction is, to Dave's demand "Open the pod bay doors, HAL."

"I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that." Chills, man. Chills.

Reply #387. Jul 24 19, 2:55 PM

terraorca

Brian,
Thank you for your thorough analysis. I confess, I had to look up the definition of sapient.
I know that you are busy, but I appreciate you taking the time for this discussion.
"2010 THE YEAR WE MADE CONTACT" was an interesting follow-up. Roy Scheider probably would not have been my choice to play Dr. Heywood Floyd, but Helen Mirren was well cast. Overall, enjoyable, but not groundbreaking as it's predecessor.
Thanks again.

Reply #388. Jul 24 19, 8:10 PM

brm50diboll

The mention of 2001 prompted me to go back and re-read parts of my blog because I knew I had mentioned 2001 before, but did not recall the depth to which I had previously discussed it. The problem with rereading old material is occasionally you discover inconsistencies in your own writing. That annoys me. I try to be consistent. I saw that I had referred to myself in this blog as a Myers-Briggs ISTJ. Elsewhere, I have stated I am an INTJ. How careless of me. I have actually tested out as an INTJ, though I do have a few ISTJ characteristics, as it is closely related (moreso than, say, an ENTJ or an INFJ or an INTP.)

Let me explain the key distinction between the INTJ and ISTJ types: N (intuition) vs S (sensing). I lean somewhat to N over S. I am more concerned with "the big picture" and "how things will develop over time" than with "strict attention to facts". Facts are definitely important and should not be ignored, but my general curiosity overrides my perfectionism and causes me to think more about what may be rather than just what is. As to the other "one-off" variants from INTJ, they aren't even close to my personality. ENTJ is horribly wrong. I am about as introverted as you can get. Strangely, I have no fear of public speaking. But I need lots of "alone time" to think, and I am fine (as anyone who reads what I write on FT) with going on for a long time with no real concern whether anyone responds to it or not. If they do, I appreciate their interest and will try to reciprocate, but if not, it's no skin off my nose and I will keep saying what I want to anyway regardless of the "crickets chirping". INFJ is also quite off. "Feelings" is almost a pejorative term for me. I think, and feeling without sufficient thinking is a major source of error which I dislike intensely. And then there is INTP. Wimps! You're darn tooting I *judge*. The big J is absolutely integral to my personality. I would rather be wrong than uncertain. It is impossible to always have *all* the information, and failure to make choices with partial information is a big mistake in my opinion, as not making a choice is often making a very bad choice.

The only thing in the middle of the road, as we say in Texas, are dead armadillos. I'm going to pick a side. Sometimes my opinions are not that strongly held, and, believe it or not, I do change my mind occasionally, given sufficient evidence, but I'm going to take a side.

ISTJ shows much greater deference to authority figures than INTJ. I respect authority. It is necessary for order in society. But where I lean to the N over the S is that I don't believe something just because an authority figure said so. People that use the authority argument annoy me on that. I have definitely gotten in trouble and paid the price for telling off someone above me in authority that what they were saying was total BS. I was in the US Army for six years (1989-1995). Maybe someone will be able to infer something by the fact that I was not promoted. I was a captain when I entered, and I was a captain when I left. I was honorably discharged, of course, but the technical reason I did not make major was I didn't pass the PT test. I didn't care. I knew I wanted out and I didn't think the effort needed to get into shape to pass the PT test to get promoted was worth the couple of months that I might have been a major. And trust me, I definitely told bird colonels what I thought. Not exactly a brown noser.

Reply #389. Jul 24 19, 11:00 PM

brm50diboll

So I've been reading Kevin's use of tinyurl in his blog and thought it might be useful here, so here's a test:

https://tinyurl.com/y5n23rk9

Reply #390. Jul 30 19, 5:09 PM

brm50diboll

That seems to have worked.

Yes. This looks like a good future addition to my blog to help emphasize certain points I make.

Reply #391. Jul 30 19, 5:12 PM

terraorca

Wow, an educational thread as well, Myers-Briggs, 16 different 4 letter abbreviations, if my research is correct.
Thanks for that, always love to learn new things.

Reply #392. Jul 30 19, 9:07 PM

UmberWunFayun

Brian, please don't think I'm being rude, because I'm just curious; Myers-Briggs is very interesting (I test INFJ myself, although I indicate various other traits as I have a somewhat mercurial personality) but have you also ever been tested for ASD? Many of your idiosyncrasies remind me strongly of my husband, who has high-functioning Asperger's.

Reply #393. Jul 31 19, 12:01 AM

brm50diboll

I was tested by school psychologists around third grade (I think?) and I cannot remember specifically what was said. I don't know if Asperger's (or autistic spectrum) was even a consideration back then. But we moved around a lot back then. After moving to Diboll (fourth grade), aside from the yearly standardized achievement tests everyone had to take, I don't believe I was tested in school again. It never seemed to be a problem, anyway. It was a small town. Everyone knew I was the "future valedictorian" long before I ever even got to high school and just let me have my space. I played chess with a friend almost every lunch period for years. The PE coaches rarely bothered to have me dress out. In fact, in high school they let me stay in the locker room during my PE period (they gave me straight 100s on my report cards) and play chess with coaches.

I certainly have some "Aspergian" characteristics. People have compared me to Sheldon Cooper, but I actually think a more apt comparison would be Leonard Hofstadter. I don't have allergies, but I pretty much let people be themselves. I am perfectionistic only with myself and authority figures who are clearly wrong. As an example, I had a sixth-grade teacher that tried to tell the class that AD meant "after death". I said it did not. It meant "anno domini" which is Latin for "in the year of our Lord" and that the calendar dates from what was thought to be the year of Christ's birth (now felt to be off by a few years - probably 4 or 5 BC) and *not* Christ's death. It doesn't concern me if people make errors per se. It concerns me if they make errors in a position of authority, particularly teaching others. Teachers needed to be on their A game when I was in the classroom. It might not look like I was paying attention (I often was reading comic books in class), but I heard every word and would answer any question directed to me. But I generally let other students answer the questions not specifically directed. Teachers thought they could catch me off guard, but they soon learned better. After about six weeks, I was generally only asked if no one else knew the answer. Similarly, other students rarely asked me for help on their schoolwork because they knew I wouldn't just give them the answers, I would explain it to them. But there was a kind of "network", so if I explained something to Mark or Barry or Roy, before long it got around to the rest of the class (at least the ones interested in learning the material.)

I generally let the teachers teach, though. I did have one teacher (an older Biology teacher nearing retirement who had a lot of health problems and missed a lot of class days) who had been "drafted" to teach Physics my junior year even though he really didn't understand it very well simply because the school didn't have anyone else who could teach the class. One day, he just called out "Mr. M*****, why don't you come to the board and teach today's lesson?" And so I did. "Sure thing, Mr. Stalsby."

Reply #394. Jul 31 19, 9:36 AM

UmberWunFayun

Thank you for replying, I understand that it was a personal question. One of the key indicators in my husband's diagnosis was his need to explain things in great detail, even when an explanation isn't necessarily required. A simple example is that if he says, "Y'know The Rising Sun pub?" It won't matter if you answer yes or no, he'll give detailed directions to its location, because that's the only way he can be sure you understand exactly what he's talking about before he goes any further. This translates exponentially upward; he's explained the mechanics of the motorbike engine to me many times, despite being fully aware that I'm not listening.if he studied science or astronomy, I'm positive he'd write blog entries very much like yours.

Reply #395. Jul 31 19, 2:48 PM

UmberWunFayun

On the other hand, I was the obnoxious kid in class who called out the teachers on their mistakes and argued with them in front of everybody.

Reply #396. Jul 31 19, 2:51 PM

brm50diboll

I always liked it when students pointed out a mistake I made while working a problem. One, it shows they were paying attention. And, two, it saved me a lot of time, because if I got to the end of the problem, I'd know I had made a mistake and then I'd have to spend a lot of time retracing my steps to find where I went wrong. Most teachers are fine. But there are a few that don't know what they're talking about, and worse, they don't know that they don't know what they're talking about.

Reply #397. Jul 31 19, 3:32 PM

UmberWunFayun

Actually, one of my college tutors (teacher) told me the same thing. I never quite understood why all of my schoolteachers (except one) really liked me, since I was a big pain in the butt and questioned everything. Then at college one day, my friend and I went and apologised to Miss Seymour for being particularly outspoken in her class that morning. She said "Thank you, but there's no apology necessary. I wish more students were like you two. In a class of forty people, you're the only ones I can be sure are interested, paying attention, and, more importantly, thinking for yourselves." I guess more teachers must have felt that way than I realised.

Reply #398. Jul 31 19, 11:14 PM

BizarreLoveTriangle

The Sixth Doctor with his blow up bouncy Tardis ,signing autographs for £20 (times must be hard or in his case just time) a rogue Dalek threatening everyone with extermination,Spiderman,Deadpool and a Stormtrooper with a Yorkshire accent all invaded my local shopping precinct today, in a galaxy far, far away.......

Reply #399. Aug 10 19, 11:58 AM

brm50diboll

I don't have much of a response for that (I did see Deadpool 2) except to note:

Today is my 56th birthday.

May the Force be with all of you.
Live long and prosper.

Reply #400. Aug 10 19, 2:02 PM

469 replies. On page 20 of 24 pages. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24

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