Subject: Military commanders of merit.
Posted by: trojan11
Date: Jul 19 10
This is not a thread dedicated to the famous commanders of history. We all know of Napoleon, Alexander, Saladin, Rommel, Patton and so on. However, throughout history there have been many military commanders of note, but who have never really come into the public eye.
Does anyone have regard for an unsung hero of the past. The kind of commander that did well, sometimes brilliantly, but never reached the public's attention?
One of favourites is Gotthard Heinrici (generaloberst) of WW2. He was the man tasked by Hitler to prevent the Soviets from crossing the Oder. Heinrici's efforts to defend Berlin border upon near genius, I think. He also quite successfully defied Hitler and his cronies.
Posted by: trojan11
Date: Jul 19 10
This is not a thread dedicated to the famous commanders of history. We all know of Napoleon, Alexander, Saladin, Rommel, Patton and so on. However, throughout history there have been many military commanders of note, but who have never really come into the public eye.
Does anyone have regard for an unsung hero of the past. The kind of commander that did well, sometimes brilliantly, but never reached the public's attention?
One of favourites is Gotthard Heinrici (generaloberst) of WW2. He was the man tasked by Hitler to prevent the Soviets from crossing the Oder. Heinrici's efforts to defend Berlin border upon near genius, I think. He also quite successfully defied Hitler and his cronies.
91 replies. On page 3 of 5 pages. 1 2 3 4 5
merrijig
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How about Genghis Khan ? He led the Mongols who created the largest empire in history, He must have known a thing or two about strategy. Reply #41. Mar 21 12, 12:51 AM |
trojan11
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Largest contiguous empire, not the largest empire. The largest empire in history was the British Empire, both in land mass and people ruled. No doubting Genghis Khan's military genius, but this thread is really for those lesser known lights of the military world. Reply #42. Mar 24 12, 7:46 AM |
shipyardbernie 
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Vice Admiral Cuthbert Collingwood, 1st Baron Collingwood. Friend and second in command to Horatio Nelson. Assumed command after the death of Nelson and was the real hero of the Battle of Trafalgar. Reply #43. Mar 25 12, 6:29 AM |
| trojan11
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There are many that would agree with that assessment. The plan for Trafalgar might well have been Nelson's, but it was Collingwood's execution of that plan that ensured success. Reply #44. Mar 26 12, 12:38 PM |
Cymruambyth
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As a military strategist, Richard Plantagenet, Duke of Gloucester and later Richard III was worthy of note. Reply #45. Jun 10 12, 12:17 PM |
boxjaw
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SS-Hauptsturmführer, Michael Wittmann. Reply #46. Jun 13 12, 12:14 PM |
trojan11
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#45. Not too sure that I can agree with that Cym. A first class fighting man (though small in stature), no doubt about that. But I do wonder about his tactics at Bosworth. Overwhelming military strength should have seen him win a clear cut victory. An rapid advance to contact on open field must surely have seen and end to Tudor and his small army. Instead Richard III chose a purely defensive position on Ambion Hill. He allowed that position to be flanked by the hostile lord Stanley; he was able to exert control only over the vanguard of his forces, with which, had he assumed a more offensive rather than defensive posture, he would most likely have won. He dared all or nothing on a magnificent charge directly against Tudor, when, really, he would have done better to have dared all or nothing at the onset of the battle. Hindsight is, of course, so easy. Nevertheless, Richard III fought that battle in an odd manner. Reply #47. Jun 13 12, 1:04 PM |
| trojan11
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#46. A splendid choice, Boxjaw. People are inclined to think of aircraft and pilots when it comes to aces. Tank warfare is vile and filthy for the crews. To run up such a string of victories was an amazing fear of arms. Wittmann was a magnificent tactician. Reply #48. Jun 13 12, 1:12 PM |
Greatguggly
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Trojan11, your #13 response is not accurate. The Vietnam war was fought and lost by frightened politicians. Your assessment that US armed forces were 'humiliated' is both false and, to me, offensive. The North Vietnamese were not as badly outgunned as one might think, what with the tons of munitions they received from China and the USSR but they still were defeated in almost every major battle of the war. Reply #49. Jun 13 12, 2:05 PM |
| trojan11
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It is useless to blame politicians. They only become frightened when their armchair aggression is not matched by the ability of their armed forces. Certainly I did not mean to be offensive. All power seeking nations suffer military/political defeat and humiliation at some time. Further: are you seriously comparing the mass conventional ordnance of the USA to that of a third world country lacking any kind of worthwhile infrastructure, simply because they received some material aid from China and elsewhere? Please! Fact is fact. No amount of glossing over can ever disguise the fact that it was an humiliating defeat. Reply #50. Jun 13 12, 7:11 PM |
| Greatguggly
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Gloat all you want about the outcome but the fact is the politicians feared public opinion (something the enemy obviously was not bothered with), not military defeat. Similar to today's problem in that respect as evil44 pointed out. Reply #51. Jun 13 12, 8:55 PM |
| boxjaw
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Rick. I respectfully disagree with your argument. The media wasn't the reason that Vietnam became a quagmire. The politicians that were guiding the war were restrained by the ideology of that time. There was no precedent set for sound policy. It was the hottest protracted point of the cold war. The US military did their 'best' and did it 'well'. As I pointed out in a previous post, the North had a sound will to win that civil war. The NVA and Viet-cong were there for the duration. The American presence was always rotational. The war was flawed from the very beginning. 58,000 lives lost later, the US is now trying to ally itself with the very country it was trying to contain 40 years ago. Also Rick. What do you mean by 'similar to todays problem' in your previous post? I'm lost. Reply #52. Jun 14 12, 8:46 AM |
| boxjaw
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Also Rick, in response to your post#49. The NVA and Viet Cong were defeated in 'every' major combat operation. Reply #53. Jun 14 12, 10:53 AM |
| Greatguggly
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Now I'm a little confused, Bernard. You said that you disagree with me but you came awfully close to agreeing with me in your posts. As a family member of two people who served in Vietnam, I was ticked off by the statement that US armed forces were humiliated and 'scurried home in utter defeat'. If that were true I'd just have to swallow it but it isn't true. In our current conflicts in the Middle East, the military is still somewhat handcuffed by public opinion and, therefore, political decisions back home. Reply #54. Jun 14 12, 1:39 PM |
| Greatguggly
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And of course any concern for the tens of thousands of South Vietnamese who were forced to abandon their homeland is completely overridden by the joy of seeing the United States embarrassed. That's what really matters. Reply #55. Jun 14 12, 2:53 PM |
| boxjaw
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I disagree with the idea that the media is what turned the war sour on the homefront. It was a combination of factors that lead to this. I didn't say "'the US armed forces were humiliated and 'scurried home in utter defeat'". Never said those words. I think I understand why the US left though. As I said before, unsound policy. As far as the current situation in Afghanistan, I don't see any correlation to the Vietnam war at all. Many lessons were learned from the previous conflict that are being implemented by the military today. The two conflicts differ immensely. I'm not sure what you mean by the 'handcuffing' of the military by public opinion or the politicians. I don't see it. Reply #56. Jun 15 12, 7:33 AM |
| trojan11
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The use of words such as "gloat" and "joy" in the context of this already off track thread, are emotive and ill advised unless it is your intention to see this thread closed down. The US won all major battles? "Major" is a subjective word in this instance. There is a very long list of US defeats in Vietnam. Routs, low moral, despair. There is the Hollywood/politician version, and then there is the reality. For your information: I have a cousin who survived two tours in Vietnam, and friends that volunteered. The survivors now form the 'Legion of Veterans of Foreign Wars' here. Also, I was personally involved in 'search and infiltrate' exercise missions against US troops at divisional level in order to ascertain their combat worthiness before embarkation to Vietnam. There is no joy, no gloating. But I shall always prefer historical truth to fiction. Reply #57. Jun 15 12, 7:46 AM |
| trojan11
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The "scurried home" comment was mine, Boxjaw. I might better have said, departed. Vietnam, like N.I is an extremely difficult and touchy topic, I'm afraid. Reply #58. Jun 15 12, 7:51 AM |
| boxjaw
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Agreed. Let's all get back on track here. OK? Reply #59. Jun 15 12, 8:33 AM |
| Greatguggly
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Yes, trojan made the comment about scurrying and humiliation. Also, I never mentioned the media, though now that you do, the media did play a major part in shaping public opinion. Let's see, US forces scurried home in 1975. Maybe trojan can enlighten us as to which battles they were utterly humiliated in just before the withdrawal. Or maybe he's referring to the failed Tet Offensive in which the NVA/Vietcong lost almost as many men as the US lost in the entire war. Or maybe the Easter Offensive of 1972 where the North again took huge losses, including over 700 tanks (quite a large number of tanks for such a poor little innocent Third World nation). So talking about war is straying too far from the topic of a thread about military commanders? Should I talk about cheesecake? Maybe you guys can tell me what is acceptable for me to talk about. I won't be made to feel like I've done something wrong by defending the the honor of my country's military, especially against such a celebratory denigration. Reply #60. Jun 15 12, 8:55 AM |
91 replies. On page 3 of 5 pages. 1 2 3 4 5
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