Subject: Military commanders of merit.
Posted by: trojan11
Date: Jul 19 10
This is not a thread dedicated to the famous commanders of history. We all know of Napoleon, Alexander, Saladin, Rommel, Patton and so on. However, throughout history there have been many military commanders of note, but who have never really come into the public eye.
Does anyone have regard for an unsung hero of the past. The kind of commander that did well, sometimes brilliantly, but never reached the public's attention?
One of favourites is Gotthard Heinrici (generaloberst) of WW2. He was the man tasked by Hitler to prevent the Soviets from crossing the Oder. Heinrici's efforts to defend Berlin border upon near genius, I think. He also quite successfully defied Hitler and his cronies.
Posted by: trojan11
Date: Jul 19 10
This is not a thread dedicated to the famous commanders of history. We all know of Napoleon, Alexander, Saladin, Rommel, Patton and so on. However, throughout history there have been many military commanders of note, but who have never really come into the public eye.
Does anyone have regard for an unsung hero of the past. The kind of commander that did well, sometimes brilliantly, but never reached the public's attention?
One of favourites is Gotthard Heinrici (generaloberst) of WW2. He was the man tasked by Hitler to prevent the Soviets from crossing the Oder. Heinrici's efforts to defend Berlin border upon near genius, I think. He also quite successfully defied Hitler and his cronies.
91 replies. On page 4 of 5 pages. 1 2 3 4 5
Greatguggly
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I'm no blind flag waver. There certainly are things our government can be rightly criticized for (The last Western nation to ban slavery, the treatment of American Indians--I don't like the term "Indian" but "Native American" includes mostly the wrong people--, possibly even the very fact that we were ever involved in the Vietnam War etc...), but, almost invariably, falsehoods are what get thrown around. Reply #61. Jun 15 12, 9:13 AM |
trojan11 
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Very well. No 1. April 1966. The battle for LZ Albany. 7th Cavalry comes up against a well hidden NVA btn. Got shot to pieces. 155 US soldiers dead, and 124 wounded. Was this a victory? Same year. During operation Paul Revere IV, Company C comes up against a large enemy force somewhere Duc Co. US dead were so numerous that they had to be taken away using the external nets of helicopters. Another victory. Many such encounters took place and created an awful and non sustainable list of casualties over the years. I could go on. But it would take page after page. Reply #62. Jun 15 12, 12:33 PM |
boxjaw
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Charles Momsen Reply #63. Jun 15 12, 10:18 PM |
| boxjaw
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One more point on the combat operations conducted during the Vietnam War. Trojan gives US casualties, but disregards the NVA's. Also LZ Albany was a part of the much larger Battle of Ia Drang, which happened in November 1965 not April 1966. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ia_Drang http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Battle_of_the_Ia_Drang_Valley.aspx Operation Paul Revere Phase IV, happened from October to December 1966. http://1-22infantry.org/history/paulrevereiv.htm I don't see any of your source material trojan. I found your source though. Almost verbatim. http://www.g2mil.com/lost_vietnam.htm When you get to #8. Operation Paul Revere IV. Click on overrun. Again, no 'major combat operation' during the Vietnam War was lost by US forces. None. Reply #64. Jun 15 12, 11:24 PM |
| trojan11
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Thank you, Boxjaw. I checked that source. Do you find it incorrect, or manufactured in any way? Not quite verbatim bearing in mind I was a year out. Unless of course you refer to casualty figures. A bit difficult to be anything other than verbatim with those, wouldn't you say? I did say that "major" was used subjectively. My point was, and is, that Vietnam was not a string of unbroken victories. Your quoted source is absolutly correct. Vietnamese losses were huge. Neither did the Vietnamese win the *major* battles; however, they won plenty of smaller ones. Now to word "scurried". This has caused offence and I withdraw it with aplogoies. It is indeed insulting to the young men that died in that place and should not have been used. Reply #65. Jun 16 12, 8:21 AM |
| trojan11
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Charles Momson. Now that is what this thread is, was, at least, all about. I had never heard of him. Very interesting and brilliant man. Reply #66. Jun 16 12, 8:25 AM |
| Greatguggly
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It's amazing how many different varieties of cheesecake there are. Oh wait... Hey, thanks for putting in the work, Bernard. I had found that lost battles of Vietnam page also (kind of hard to miss since it's the first result when searching for any number of things pertaining to Vietnam). You dug deeper though and I appreciate that. I didn't bother because I figured the facts wouldn't make any difference and because I'm lazy when it comes to research. Reply #67. Jun 16 12, 1:08 PM |
| trojan11
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What might be interesting, would be to have a look at the Vietnamese accounts of that war. I have no doubt that they have come up with much the same comments. And I have to ask. Are you stating that the 'Lost battles of Vietnam," site, is a tissue of lies? You certainly seem to be as you clearly don't regard it as in any way "fact." Reply #68. Jun 16 12, 2:42 PM |
| boxjaw
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No Trojan. I never said no battles were lost. I said no major operations. Big difference. Wasn't Momson a fascinating individual? Reply #69. Jun 16 12, 3:02 PM |
| trojan11
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Sorry, Boxjaw.My question was directed at Greatguggly. And yes, Momson was certainly a fascinating individual. I shall be reading up more on him very soon. Reply #70. Jun 16 12, 3:06 PM |
| Greatguggly
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I also never said that no battles were lost, in fact I wasn't even aware that all major operations were successful. I was just perturbed at the implication that Americans in Vietnam were cowards, but we've covered all that, I'm over it. I appreciate the apology but now that I think more about it, I'm not really owed one. I didn't go and fight. Reply #71. Jun 16 12, 4:45 PM |
| boxjaw
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Squadron Leader Roger Joyce Bushell. A young man who hailed from South Africa. He was the leader of the escape from Stalag Luft III POW camp. He was a fighter pilot in the RAF. He was murdered along with 49 other escapees from the camp. Paul Brickhill, who also was imprisoned at Stalag Luft III, wrote an exceptional book about the construction of the tunnels and the escape. 'The Great Escape'. Very good read. Reply #72. Jun 17 12, 2:26 AM |
REDVIKING57
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Brickhill also wrote "Reach For The Sky" - an excellent account of the life and career of another special fighter pilot - Group Captain Sir Douglas Bader. Reply #73. Jun 17 12, 4:52 PM |
houston1127
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Who is planning the resistance to the American/NATO/coalition/Karzai government/Pakistani war against the Pashtun tribesman of the AfPak region? Because it looks like they are going to win this conflict. Reply #74. Jun 20 12, 10:35 PM |
| Greatguggly
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Well I sure hope it's not the US. We sure wouldn't want to violate anyone's sovereignty. Reply #75. Jun 22 12, 8:01 AM |
| trojan11
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Careful Greatguggly, your tongue might burst clean through your cheek. Reply #76. Jun 22 12, 11:32 AM |
| houston1127
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Sovereignty? Pshaw! That's long gone. Along with privacy. The Empire is scared of its own citizens along with third world peasants in the dustiest corners of nowhere. Which makes it so surprising that the tribesman of Afghanistan are in a virtual stalemate with NATO, the US, and the Kabuli government. Heck, everything--including the Constitution and the kitchen sink--was thrown at these guys and we still can't win. Just WHO IS leading this fight? He deserves some credit. Reply #77. Jun 23 12, 5:34 AM |
| trojan11
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Those people have been fighting various empires for centuries, Houston. All in a day's work, as far as they are concerned. Just more of the "same old same old." Reply #78. Jun 23 12, 7:53 AM |
| Greatguggly
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Pakistan at war? With whom? India maybe. Or perpetually on the brink. Pakistan harbors terrorists, they don't kill them. Yeah, they captured a few early on as a gesture, hoping to satisfy us and retain their yearly free aid but then they realized they could still get the money and do nothing. As far as sovereignty goes, the main difference between us and them is that the United States has never had thousands of international terrorists hiding within our borders (unless they're here to do us harm). If we did, we'd be hunting them down. What continues to astonish me is the way we are once again portrayed as the bad guys in this conflict by so many people as if we were slaughtering thousands of innocents for the fun of it. The people we're fighting over there do not and have never wanted peace with the West. People act as if they're just an innocent peace loving bunch of misunderstood tribesmen who just want to be left alone even after many of their leaders have stated that the war will continue after we've gone. I'll admit, it's very hard to define victory (oops, the Pres says we're not supposed to use that word) in this conflict. What would be victory, killing them all? Well, we all know that can't happen. A sudden mass surrender? Not likely. In some people's opinion, we lose no matter what. Murderers if we continue to fight, incompetent if we cut and run. Reply #79. Jun 23 12, 10:01 AM |
| Greatguggly
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Meant to add that it's very hard to avoid endless war when your enemy teaches its children from a very early age to hate and/or kill you, something that, the last time I checked, isn't happening here. Quite the contrary, in fact. We're supposed to learn to be tolerant and understanding of the people who want us all dead. Reply #80. Jun 23 12, 10:08 AM |
91 replies. On page 4 of 5 pages. 1 2 3 4 5
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