Subject: Can someone please explain?
Posted by: Mixamatosis
Date: Jan 21 17
I've read that it's dangerous to mix ammonia and bleach. Variously I've read that it can produce deadly cyanide gas, chlorine gas (which is said to be bad for you) and even explosions.
However swimming pools are kept fit for use with chlorine, and our urine contains ammonia but then we may clean toilets with bleach. Also many cleaning products contain either ammonia or bleach and it would be easy to use them unthinkingly in combination.
How is it that people aren't generally harmed by these dangers when swimming in swimming pools or doing daily cleaning, or are we being harmed at low level and is the harm cumulative?
Posted by: Mixamatosis
Date: Jan 21 17
I've read that it's dangerous to mix ammonia and bleach. Variously I've read that it can produce deadly cyanide gas, chlorine gas (which is said to be bad for you) and even explosions.
However swimming pools are kept fit for use with chlorine, and our urine contains ammonia but then we may clean toilets with bleach. Also many cleaning products contain either ammonia or bleach and it would be easy to use them unthinkingly in combination.
How is it that people aren't generally harmed by these dangers when swimming in swimming pools or doing daily cleaning, or are we being harmed at low level and is the harm cumulative?
526 replies. On page 10 of 27 pages. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27
brm50diboll 
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The second Galilean moon of Jupiter is also the smallest and, for many, the most interesting: Europa. Europa is the brightest of the four, with a relatively smooth surface crisscrossed by numerous fractures. Its surface is water ice, and is relatively smooth and uncratered because it frequently resurfaces itself. How? The smooth icy surface covers a vast ocean underneath. Fracturing of the icy surface allows for liquid water to come to the surface and then freeze, forming fresh, smooth ice that erases any craters. How does this subsurface ocean exist? Again, the cause is internal heating due to tidal forces from Jupiter's gravity. Since Europa is farther from Jupiter than Io, the internal heating in Europa is less than that in Io. There is not enough internal heating in Europa to melt rock and produce volcanism, as on Io. But there *is* enough internal heating to melt water and produce the subsurface ocean. The thickness of the icy crust above the ocean averages several kilometers, enough to keep the ocean in darkness, except for possible subterranean sources of light. At the surface, Europa has only the thinnest trace of an atmosphere (mostly oxygen, surprisingly, due to UV breakdown of water molecules). Despite these conditions, many astronomers think that Europa's subsurface ocean may possibly harbor some form of primitive life. I am skeptical of that, but many efforts to investigate this possibility have been proposed, including developing a probe capable of melting its way through the icy crust into the subsurface ocean, and then acting as a submarine in that ocean, looking for signs of life. Another issue related to this has concerned developers of Jovian projects: possible contamination. There are some earthly microbes capable of surviving extremes in temperature and the vacuum of space and remaining viable, perhaps undetected on the surface of our space probes. If such organisms were somehow to get to Europa, they may act as a sort of "invasive species", spreading there and perhaps displacing any hypothetical primordial life forms there. (Reminiscent to me of Spock's characterization of the Genesis project in Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan.) In any event, despite what seems to me to be an extremely unlikely scenario, project developers have been concerned enough about it to want to prevent any accidental probe contact with Europa. So, in the case of the extremely successful and informative Galileo probe, when it was nearing the end of its life, as its gyroscope controls began to break down, the project managers did not want to take the chance that Galileo might accidentally crash into Europa after the last of its navigational systems failed. So they intentionally crashed Galileo directly into Jupiter while they still had control to prevent that possibility. (A similar thing also was done with the Cassini probe of Saturn, for similar reasons, although Enceladus, rather than Europa, was the issue there.) One day we may get more definitive data on what is actually going on in Europa's subsurface ocean. Should be interesting. Reply #181. Mar 11 18, 1:43 PM |
| brm50diboll
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A moment of silence for the passing of Stephen Hawking. Reply #182. Mar 13 18, 10:10 PM |
Mixamatosis
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Sad about Stephen Hawking He said his goal was to celebrate his 75th birthday but he reached his 76th birthday so more than achieved his goal - a remarkable achievement considering he was given 2 years to live when he was first diagnosed. Reply #183. Mar 19 18, 1:25 PM |
| brm50diboll
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It actually is quite amazing that he lived as long as he did with that diagnosis. Because of his fame as a genius, he had access to state-of-the-art medical care at all times. For the "average" ALS patient, most will probably not get the timely care needed when they develop the inevitable bouts of aspiration pneumonia. In addition, the high tech technology that allowed him to communicate is also a recent development. Had he been born 10 years earlier, he would have been unable to accomplish what he did because he would have been unable to communicate. Reply #184. Mar 19 18, 2:26 PM |
| Mixamatosis
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Brian. He was treated by the NHS in Britain, a healthcare system open to everyone. He was quoted as saying "I wouldn't be here without the NHS". I think treatments and care have improved over the years as well. Famous cello player Jacqueline Du Pre lived for 16 year with multiple sclerosis but I have a friend who has lived for 23 years with it, without any periods of respite that happen in some variants of the disease. It helps if the family is very caring and supportive too with enough resources to ensure life is as comfortable as possible, and I'm sure Stephen Hawking had those advantages too. Reply #185. Mar 19 18, 4:59 PM |
| Mixamatosis
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By the way, I do know that Stephen Hawking had ALS or motor neurone disease as we called it - not multiple sclerosis but they are similar in being life limiting diseases. Reply #186. Mar 19 18, 5:01 PM |
| brm50diboll
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Having permanent nursing assistance to perform suction of the respiratory tract at any time and immediately call for hospitalization if indicated is not a perk routinely supplied by NHS or any other medical system. The life expectancy after diagnosis with ALS is not 50 years. He benefitted from NHS, certainly. But he benefitted more from having access to care not supplied by NHS. Care available to those with resources, which is why those with resources frequently leave countries with extensive medical systems and come to the United States. If one has the money or the connections, no long waiting lists or cumbersome utilization reviews. Reply #187. Mar 19 18, 9:52 PM |
| Mixamatosis
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Brian. You can buy private healthcare in Britain too if you have the money. If he had permanent 24 hour nursing care, he would have paid for that privately I'm sure. If he needed to be rushed into hospital at any time with life threatening symptoms, emergency treatment, he could go to his nearest NHS A&E (Accident and Emergency) Department or call an ambulance. Sometimes nothing can save people though. My nephew died from an asthma attack aged 45. He managed to get to his inhalers but they did not work. His wife was with him at the time and she was a nurse, but she could not save him. The ambulance and paramedics arrived quickly but they could not save him. Reply #188. Mar 20 18, 2:00 AM |
| Mixamatosis
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I'm not sure what you mean by cumbersome utlilisation reviews. I've never heard of those. Reply #189. Mar 20 18, 2:02 AM |
| Mixamatosis
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If you can't afford a 24 hour nurse in Britain, a family member(s) is(are) usually the one(s) keeping a person alive. Is it not the same in the USA? Reply #190. Mar 20 18, 2:05 AM |
| brm50diboll
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https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-care/stephen-hawking-had-als-55-years-how-did-he-do-n857006 Reply #191. Mar 20 18, 6:32 AM |
| brm50diboll
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There is a big difference between 24 hour a day professional nursing care and a family member trying to provide such care. Hawking's home was practically a mobile ICU. The wealthy and the powerful will always get better medical care than the general public, in any medical system. "Utilization Review" is a euphemism for care rationing. Sorry, you're being discharged today. You can't stay longer because it's against hospital policy. Sorry, no kidney transplant for you, you're over the maximum age. Hospitals in the US have utilization review managers and boards to keep things moving along smoothly (that is; to get people out of the hospital as quickly as they possibly can). Most probably, the NHS has something equivalent but they call it by a different name. But if a patient can pay cash, it's a different story. Stay as long as you want in your own private wing named after you. Reply #192. Mar 20 18, 6:49 AM |
| Mixamatosis
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What they say in the UK is that they won't give you treatment if your health isn't good enough to stand it. In his 80s they would not operate on my father in law for a hernia, because he had diabetes and dementia and a heart condition. They normally don't give bone cell transplants to people over 70 but they did to my brother, who was 71, as he was in good health apart from that need. Yes, the rich can keep themselves alive longer when money is no object but the NHS does a pretty good and humane job considering resources are not unlimited. Personally I don't think I'd want to live for as long as Stephen Hawking with that condition but he had a great brain and had a fulfilling life that wasn't based much on physical ability. Reply #193. Mar 20 18, 10:41 AM |
| Mixamatosis
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What a coincidence, an article in a fortnightly magazine that I get, which arrived today, is headed "Hawking's NHS Legacy". It's written by a doctor and among other things there is this quotation. "He benefited from extraodinary progress in the NHS over 70 years, but he knew that in any system other than tax funded universal care he would have struggled to get, and pay for, the the treatment he needed" I don't really know his personal circumstances. Perhaps he was not as rich as is sometimes assumed or perhaps the cost of the care he had would have been out of even his reach. Reply #194. Mar 21 18, 8:58 AM |
| brm50diboll
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The article I clearly describes the details of his financial situation and I quote: "After this [his tracheostomy in 1985], I had to have 24-hour nursing care, made possible by grants from several foundations ," Hawking told the British Medical Journal in 2002. Hawking also had good income from his books, including "A Brief History of Time". Elliot said it would have taken a lot of private funding for the care and equipment that kept him from being an invalid. Hawking was not a billionaire, but he was a millionaire. Any suggestion that the NHS or even private insurance paid for his round-the-clock medical care is in direct contradiction to the established facts of the situation, including Hawking's own quote in 2002. The NHS did a great deal for Hawking, but it did not pay for his round-the-clock nursing care. Private money did. Reply #195. Mar 21 18, 9:31 AM |
| brm50diboll
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The article I posted. Sorry for dropping the word posted. Reply #196. Mar 21 18, 9:32 AM |
| brm50diboll
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Oh, also... The article I posted and quoted from contains a link to the original British Medical Journal article in 2002 that contains Hawking's quote. It is informative to click that link and read the original 2002 article itself. Reply #197. Mar 21 18, 9:56 AM |
| brm50diboll
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https://www.inverse.com/article/24541-why-is-stephen-hawking-rich Reply #198. Mar 21 18, 10:25 AM |
| brm50diboll
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There is no doubt that Stephen Hawking benefitted from the NHS. He credited the NHS with saving his life in performing the 1985 tracheostomy as well as numerous hospitalizations over the years. He was also a very vigorous defender of the NHS and opposed any NHS changes that he considered moves toward US-style privatization. All of that I stipulate. But his 24-hour professional nursing care was paid for by private money, and he was quite wealthy. Reply #199. Mar 21 18, 10:31 AM |
| Mixamatosis
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Brian. I wasn't saying he didn't get private care but if he had had to pay for the NHS care he got on top of the private care that would have added to the cost. We don't know all the details of his NHS care apart from his tracheostomy but as he himself said he would have "struggled" if it hadn't been freely available to him, I'm sure he knew his own circumstances and I believe him. A person with that condition needs a lot of equipment to function at the level he did. I have a friend with multiple sclerosis. Over the years she has needed different wheelchairs, a specially adapted people carrier to take the wheelchair on board, equipment for lifting, special beds, the house to be adapted to turn a bathroom into a wet room, a stair rail and seat, a downstairs bathroom created, a wall knocked through to join 2 rooms, a conservatory built to absorb sunlight when it's cold outside. The ground floor and garden paths adjusted to the same level and steps removed, book readers, special software to use the computer, and non-medical carers. That probably would not have been possible if medical treatment had to be paid for on top. Reply #200. Mar 22 18, 3:09 AM |
526 replies. On page 10 of 27 pages. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27
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