Subject: Can someone please explain?
Posted by: Mixamatosis
Date: Jan 21 17
I've read that it's dangerous to mix ammonia and bleach. Variously I've read that it can produce deadly cyanide gas, chlorine gas (which is said to be bad for you) and even explosions.
However swimming pools are kept fit for use with chlorine, and our urine contains ammonia but then we may clean toilets with bleach. Also many cleaning products contain either ammonia or bleach and it would be easy to use them unthinkingly in combination.
How is it that people aren't generally harmed by these dangers when swimming in swimming pools or doing daily cleaning, or are we being harmed at low level and is the harm cumulative?
Posted by: Mixamatosis
Date: Jan 21 17
I've read that it's dangerous to mix ammonia and bleach. Variously I've read that it can produce deadly cyanide gas, chlorine gas (which is said to be bad for you) and even explosions.
However swimming pools are kept fit for use with chlorine, and our urine contains ammonia but then we may clean toilets with bleach. Also many cleaning products contain either ammonia or bleach and it would be easy to use them unthinkingly in combination.
How is it that people aren't generally harmed by these dangers when swimming in swimming pools or doing daily cleaning, or are we being harmed at low level and is the harm cumulative?
526 replies. On page 12 of 27 pages. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27
brm50diboll 
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No. Picric acid isn't even close to being the strongest organic acid. Keep in mind that highly substituted organic compounds are still organic, even though they may not look like it at first glance. Fluorination, in particular, increases the acidity of organic acids. I do not know for certain what *the* most acidic organic acid is, but there are several with lower pKas than picric acid. Check out www.ochemonline.com/PKa_data .Trifluoroacetic acid is listed with a pKa of -0.3, methanesulfonic acid with a pKa of -2.6, and trifluoromethanesulfonic acid with an astounding pKa of -14, which makes it an actual strong acid, though it is technically organic. There may be other highly substituted organic acids out there with unusually low pKas. Reply #221. May 17 18, 9:29 AM |
LoveAnimals555
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Umm.. Never know about them. Studied a bit about those acids you mentioned but we are never told the complete thing. The order of acidic strength my chemistry teacher gave just end at picric acid. Nice list but, it does not have picric acid on the list? Is it because its basically an alcohol? Reply #222. May 17 18, 11:03 AM |
| brm50diboll
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For anyone else reading this, I would like to sketch the structure of picric acid (trinitrophenol) here, but the limitations of the Board format does not allow me to do that, so: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picric_acid Picric acid is a substituted phenol, which is a little different than an alcohol. Both alcohols and phenols contain hydroxyl (-OH) groups, but in ordinary alcohols, the pKas are around 16 and therefore ordinary alcohols do not show any appreciable acidic properties in aqueous solution, though "superbases" (such as sodium amide, NaNH2), can convert them to their corresponding conjugate bases, known as alkoxides. Alkoxides are such strong bases that, when placed in water, immediately revert back to the parent alcohol and the hydroxide (OH(-1)) ion. But phenols do show weak acidic properties in water. The parent of that class, phenol itself (hydroxybenzene), contains a hydroxyl group attached to a benzene ring. Phenol and its derivatives are weakly acidic in aqueous solution because the aromatic nature (electron generalization) of the benzene ring stabilizes the negative charge in the corresponding phenolate ion, making it a weaker base than the alkoxide ion. Phenol itself is quite a weak acid, with a pKa around 10 or so. But addition of electron-withdrawing groups to the benzene ring (particularly in the ortho- and para- positions relative to the hydroxyl group) further stabilizes the conjugate bases, making these *substituted* phenols even stronger acids than phenol itself. The nitro (NO2) group is a particularly strong electron-withdrawing group. Picric acid is trinitrophenol. It contains *three* nitro groups attached to the benzene ring, two at the ortho positions (relative to the hydroxyl group) and one at the para position. This combination makes picric acid a much stronger acid than phenol itself, though it is still a weak acid compared to common inorganic strong acids like hydrochloric (HCl) or sulfuric (H2SO4). But the benzene ring and the nitro groups are not the only way of increasing the strength of organic acids. As I mentioned in my previous post, fluorination also strengthens organic acids. But the number of possible fluorinated derivatives of organic acids is immense, and the pKas of all these possibilities have not been characterized. The reference I gave in my last post was a *very incomplete* one. It did not attempt to list all organic acids, including all possible fluorinated derivatives. However, it *was* enough to show that picric acid is *not* the strongest organic acid. If anyone tries to tell you that "Compound X" is the strongest organic acid, I would be *extremely* skeptical about such a claim because accurate pKas simply have not been determined for the tens of thousands (at least) of known organic acids and their substituted (particularly fluorinated) derivatives. Organic chemistry is an enormous field which is constantly expanding. Any "candidate" strongest organic acid may always be superseded by a newer, stronger one. To expound on that point further, we know that hexafluoroantimonic acid (HSbF6) is a "superacid", albeit an inorganic one. But, in principle anyway, an organic derivative of it (also a "superacid") may be prepared. I do not know if trifluoromethanepentaantimonic acid exists at present (HCF3SbF5). But who's to say it won't be prepared at some point in the future, in which case it would surpass the acidic properties of organic acids whose pKas *have* been characterized at present. I think looking for *the* strongest organic acid is a waste of time. It is like saying how many moons Jupiter has. New ones keep getting discovered. Whatever number you have today will be totally obsolete in ten years. Reply #223. May 17 18, 11:53 AM |
| LoveAnimals555
|
Wow, till now I has never heard of super acids. I know these subjects chemistry, physics are a vast subject. But I will have to leave it as I probably leave will be getting admission in a MBBS course this year. Two year before when I picked up the choice to go in Medicine field, I was afraid of physics, Chemistry and math. But now after two years things have changed in such a manner that I love Science i.e I love physics, Chemistry, botany and zoology. I don't know what I am going to do for my love after getting admission in MBBS college! Certainly I can't leave any of them in between. So I am on a cross road, and I think I need to walk on THE ROAD NOT TAKEN. I don't know how far my love would take me in life. I want to study math that I left 2 years ago for a career that I don't like now. I want to learn Quantum mechanics. I want to learn microbiology. I don't know how I am going to do all that. Brian you are a teacher with experience! Can you give me some tips? Reply #224. May 17 18, 12:13 PM |
| brm50diboll
|
I didn't learn all I know today in college. I have been a teacher for many years and one of the things I tell my students is that the definition of a true intellectual is not if they have a doctoral degree (although I do have one of those). The real definition of a true intellectual (as I see it) is a person who is seriously dedicated to learning new things *every* day of his/her life. Education is not something you *finish* at some point in your life. Most of what I know now I have learned gradually after leaving formal education because I love learning new things. I ask questions like why and how all the time. I tell my students that if you do have such a serious desire to increase your knowledge every day of your life, then *I* am what happens to such a person when they reach age 54. Reply #225. May 17 18, 12:29 PM |
| LoveAnimals555
|
Yup. I remember those day when I was afraid of physics, Chemistry. At that time I picked medicine as my career so that I would get rid of these subjects. I was also happy that after completing my high school I would get rid of botany. You know I hate education system I am a part of. There is nothing interesting and practical in it. I feel like a bee in this education system in India. You have to rote all the things without actually understanding them, and finally in exams vomit your pseudo-knowledge to get good results, as a bee vomit after digesting pollens to get honey. I had developed a feeling of hatred toward this system. A creative minded child could never perform excellent in this system. I picked medicine to get rid of those subjects. I was on my way till one year but certainly begun to lose interest in the studies due to the way I was taught. Teachers tell only that much so that you can solve till the most obscure question in exam, and nothing practical and interesting. Past year my life have changed in such a way that even I can not believe. Huh! Nature showed me a lot, it developed back creativity in my mind that I had lost being part of this education system in my country. Now I am more curious than I used to be a child. Certainly nature, developed my interest towards science. I begun to love science. In the mean time I too had developed a feeling of hatred toward doctors in my country. I just wonder how well established doctors from India are in country like USA! But I hate them. You know the cause- I am suffering from common cold and cough from June 2017 and no doctor no medicine has been able to cure me yet. Huh, I just wonder how *mean* those doctors in my country are, they take fee a lot of fee and can't even cure a common cold. You know why they can not cure common cold or cough because they have been part of the system that has made them impractical, they just knew only a few possibility of how common cold catches a person! They don't have interest to bother if there is a new cause for it. Huh! I have been fed up with the explanation doctors give for my cough- viral, bacterial or I have low immunity. No doctor has any other reason. I just wonder I am going to be part of a system that creates doctor who can not even cure cough! Then you may think about their limit on other diseases! Uhhhh. .. I have been a bit aggressive in past few years. Reply #226. May 17 18, 12:49 PM |
Mixamatosis
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There is no cure for the common cold. It clears up itself in time (It doesn't take more than a week or so to clear up usually). If the symptoms have lasted a long time there may be something else wrong. It would be useful to check with doctors again to try and get to the cause of the problem. Reply #227. May 23 18, 10:09 PM |
satguru
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I had chronic tonsillitis/bronchitis/sinusitis and went for a week's diet of fruit, and another week of fruit and salad. The doctor said all the infection had gone and I didn't need my tonsils out. No medicine needed and totally harmless as you can eat as much as you want of it. Reply #228. May 26 18, 6:34 PM |
| Mixamatosis
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Satguru. Fruit is certainly excellent for the immune system. Reply #229. May 27 18, 2:21 AM |
| Mixamatosis
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Infection and viruses are different beasts of course. Reply #230. May 27 18, 2:21 AM |
| brm50diboll
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Another thing that can masquerade as an upper respiratory infection (cold) sometimes is allergies. They may not necessarily be seasonal. Reply #231. May 27 18, 10:30 AM |
| LoveAnimals555
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That is what basically Eosinophilia is allergic disease, whichever it be. I don't know why, but I see a different reason for chronic cough. Not just different but entirely different reason that we have ever seen. I can't post it as it is my assumption, I asked about to my professors and they denied and said it is all rubbish. Still I think it to be reason I see, it is valid to every cause we have ever seen, from allergies to seasonal to viral or by any other pathogens. Just wondering how will I get to know if I am right? Will I ever get to know about it? All God knows. Reply #232. May 27 18, 11:27 AM |
| LoveAnimals555
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Just enjoying this science discussion with you all especially Brian, he has been most frequent here. Never knew that there is a place on FT where I can discuss science. Thanks mixo.. for creating this thread. :) Reply #233. May 27 18, 11:29 AM |
| Mixamatosis
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You're welcome, Love Animals. Brian is the one to provide scientific answers. I just raised some questions. Have you had diagnostic tests like x-ray or sputum analysis, or blood tests? Reply #234. May 28 18, 6:53 AM |
| LoveAnimals555
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Yay I had X-Ray of chest and blood test as well. But the thing I found new and interesting is quite different not related to it, 'a group of cells' responsible for it, I suspect. I found it on my own but you should know I just a student, just going to pass my high school this year and it is all basic observations and assumptions! So I would don't post detail about it. As you know it has no validity! :( Reply #235. May 28 18, 9:08 AM |
| Mixamatosis
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Love Animals. I don't really understand what you are getting at but have you considered whether there could be any environmental factors making you cough - pollution or allergens in the air you breathe? Allergy symptoms can often be relieved with simple remedies like anti-histamines. Reply #236. May 28 18, 11:57 AM |
| LoveAnimals555
|
Earlier it was seasonal, sometimes I had viral too. This time I has allergic with high level of eosinophil in blood around 12-13%, I took histamine medicines for 21 days as prescribed by doctor. Eosinophil back to 1-2%, cough still there. Two years back when it was seasonal, doctor prescribed immunity course I took it, no effect. I took antibiotics, no effect. I don't have asthama. I am not suffering from TB. No other fitness issue apart from a bit over-weight. I had some relief this year by doing "PRANAYAM", but to a minute level! Still cough is produced daily, even in such a warm season in India. Yesterday, I ate ice-cream after an year after my exam. A long wait though. By the way you can call me Elai! Reply #237. May 28 18, 12:06 PM |
| Mixamatosis
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I think this is a matter for the doctors really. I don't think I can be of any help Elai. Reply #238. May 28 18, 3:22 PM |
| brm50diboll
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It is FunTrivia policy that we should not attempt to give medical advice. Even if that weren't the policy, I personally would not attempt to make a diagnosis or give advice based on something I read in the boards. However, as a general matter, we should remember that those who comment in a thread are probably not the only readers of that thread, and I do think it is worthwhile to explain to any readers who may not know what eosinophilia is. Eosinophils are a type of white blood cell (actually one of the rarer types) which is involved in chronic immunity. Eosinophilia is an unusually high eosinophil count, which is a sign, but a nonspecific one. In addition to being found in patients with chronic allergies, it also appears in certain parasitic infections. Chronic symptoms which do not improve are not characteristic of a cold and should be evaluated by a doctor who can actually perform the examination and tests, not discussed in a thread on the internet. Any medical advice which does "slip through" FT's completely justifiable prohibitions is very likely to be utterly worthless at best. Reply #239. May 28 18, 11:53 PM |
| Mixamatosis
|
I must clarify that at no time did I purport to give medical advice. My comments were in the nature of have you thought of this or that. I did state that colds clear up by themselves but so did you Brian, I think that's common scientific knowledge. If not, my apologies. Reply #240. May 30 18, 4:22 AM |
526 replies. On page 12 of 27 pages. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27
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